View Poll Results: Who will win?
Felipe Massa
0
0%
Michael Schumacher
0
0%
Nico Rosberg
0
0%
Nick Heidfeld
0
0%
Vitaly Petrov
0
0%
Rubens Barrichello
0
0%
Pastor Maldanodo
0
0%
Adrian Sutil
0
0%
Paul di Resta
0
0%
Kamui Kobayashi
0
0%
Sergio Perez
0
0%
Sebastien Buemi
0
0%
Jamie Algersuari
0
0%
Jarno Trulli
0
0%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll
2011 Italian Grand Prix
09-20-2011, 01:19 AM
#301
Reasonable, But ...........
You do realize vettel was slower than Hamilton before f1 , slower than Heidfeild at BMW and slower than Speed when he drove his TR chassis. The race he won with TR was not with a TR chassis ..
Vettel has not shown to be any faster than Webber when they have equal equipment, to compare him to Alonso or Hamilton is well ....
I will agree on Hamilton's Talent , disagree that Hamilton is outright faster than Alonso and he never proved so in 07, faster in the rain, Yes, but not over a race distance in the dry and absolutely not at the same level as a package..
You do realize vettel was slower than Hamilton before f1 , slower than Heidfeild at BMW and slower than Speed when he drove his TR chassis. The race he won with TR was not with a TR chassis ..
Vettel has not shown to be any faster than Webber when they have equal equipment, to compare him to Alonso or Hamilton is well ....
I will agree on Hamilton's Talent , disagree that Hamilton is outright faster than Alonso and he never proved so in 07, faster in the rain, Yes, but not over a race distance in the dry and absolutely not at the same level as a package..
Can you tell me where I can find that he didn't have a TR chassis?
Also, I admit I'm not an avid follower of GP2 racing even though it is great racing. When did Hamilton compete against Vettel? I have a feeling you can definitely find a source for this one.
But with that in mind, I think that it's like I said - Vettel does a great job in a great car when he's not under pressure. Last year, Webber got (more?) equal treatment and was a lot more prone to giving Vettel fits. I think Seb began to overdrive for that reason and to make up for his car's unreliability early on. That's definitely his fault, but I still think that when he's calm and in the right machinery, he's as quick as anyone could be in that same car.
Lewis vs Alonso.............I've analyzed this one closely. There are all sorts of things that one could interpret from that one year at Mclaren. Here are two that come to my mind:
1) Lewis was younger ip-so-facto he's faster now than he was then.
Retort: Maybe, but I don't really think Lewis is going to get much faster. I think he walked in with as much talent as he'll ever have. I think, if anything, drivers get better at driving bad cars, setting cars up, developing cars, and managing races as they get older. Lewis did an unbelievable job as rookie because, much like Vettel's current situation now, he didn't have a huge amount of pressure on him. He had the best car but also one of the best drivers as a teammate. It was okay if he didn't beat Alonso because he was young and it wasn't expected. Toward the end of the year, it became the norm and people began to expect it. What happens? Lewis chokes.
2) Alonso is better at setting up the car than Lewis is.
Retort: None. I'm convinced of this. I can't remember which race post-Hungary 07 it was when Alonso stopped sharing setup information with Lewis. Alonso sets the car up that very track to go easier on front tires. Lewis doesn't have that information. Result? Blown front. Alonso was beaten once by Lewis after that. Why? It was raining...we agree on that point.
So, based on these things, if Lewis gets the setup right, he's quicker. If it rains, he's quicker. Over the course of a race distance if he can go back to using tires that last longer, he's quicker. If he were to somehow stop drinking whatever Charlie Sheen is selling him and drive a more controlled race, he's quicker. Under current rules that require sympathy and strategy, Alonso is quicker and would be my choice if I could find someone he could beat as a teammate. Let's face it - he gets rattled easily when he has a quick teammate. So does Vettel. Lewis doesn't.
09-20-2011, 02:13 PM
#302
Drifting
In 2008, Toro Rosso was allowed to use the same chassis as the Red Bull. Engines were different. Sort of like the Benetton/Ligier situation in 1995.
By the time of the Monza GP, the teams were working towards the 2009 spec cars which required a very different approach (wider front wing; narrower, but taller rear wing; slick tires, etc.). The result being that the 2008 cars had reached the their (respective) zenith of development.
Remember that Nico Rosberg won the GP2 title in 2005, beating Lewis in the process.
Vettel competed in Formula 3 and World Series by Renault. He was leading the World Series By Renault when he was called up to F1.
By the time of the Monza GP, the teams were working towards the 2009 spec cars which required a very different approach (wider front wing; narrower, but taller rear wing; slick tires, etc.). The result being that the 2008 cars had reached the their (respective) zenith of development.
Remember that Nico Rosberg won the GP2 title in 2005, beating Lewis in the process.
Vettel competed in Formula 3 and World Series by Renault. He was leading the World Series By Renault when he was called up to F1.
09-20-2011, 02:59 PM
#303
Rennlist Member
In 2008, Toro Rosso was allowed to use the same chassis as the Red Bull. Engines were different. Sort of like the Benetton/Ligier situation in 1995.
By the time of the Monza GP, the teams were working towards the 2009 spec cars which required a very different approach (wider front wing; narrower, but taller rear wing; slick tires, etc.). The result being that the 2008 cars had reached the their (respective) zenith of development.
Remember that Nico Rosberg won the GP2 title in 2005, beating Lewis in the process.
Vettel competed in Formula 3 and World Series by Renault. He was leading the World Series By Renault when he was called up to F1.
By the time of the Monza GP, the teams were working towards the 2009 spec cars which required a very different approach (wider front wing; narrower, but taller rear wing; slick tires, etc.). The result being that the 2008 cars had reached the their (respective) zenith of development.
Remember that Nico Rosberg won the GP2 title in 2005, beating Lewis in the process.
Vettel competed in Formula 3 and World Series by Renault. He was leading the World Series By Renault when he was called up to F1.
09-20-2011, 03:19 PM
#304
Drifting
09-20-2011, 06:20 PM
#305
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09-20-2011, 06:44 PM
#306
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Wayne, I figured you'd have an opinion on the subject.
Can you tell me where I can find that he didn't have a TR chassis?
Also, I admit I'm not an avid follower of GP2 racing even though it is great racing. When did Hamilton compete against Vettel? I have a feeling you can definitely find a source for this one.
But with that in mind, I think that it's like I said - Vettel does a great job in a great car when he's not under pressure. Last year, Webber got (more?) equal treatment and was a lot more prone to giving Vettel fits. I think Seb began to overdrive for that reason and to make up for his car's unreliability early on. That's definitely his fault, but I still think that when he's calm and in the right machinery, he's as quick as anyone could be in that same car.
Lewis vs Alonso.............I've analyzed this one closely. There are all sorts of things that one could interpret from that one year at Mclaren. Here are two that come to my mind:
1) Lewis was younger ip-so-facto he's faster now than he was then.
Retort: Maybe, but I don't really think Lewis is going to get much faster. I think he walked in with as much talent as he'll ever have. I think, if anything, drivers get better at driving bad cars, setting cars up, developing cars, and managing races as they get older. Lewis did an unbelievable job as rookie because, much like Vettel's current situation now, he didn't have a huge amount of pressure on him. He had the best car but also one of the best drivers as a teammate. It was okay if he didn't beat Alonso because he was young and it wasn't expected. Toward the end of the year, it became the norm and people began to expect it. What happens? Lewis chokes.
2) Alonso is better at setting up the car than Lewis is.
Retort: None. I'm convinced of this. I can't remember which race post-Hungary 07 it was when Alonso stopped sharing setup information with Lewis. Alonso sets the car up that very track to go easier on front tires. Lewis doesn't have that information. Result? Blown front. Alonso was beaten once by Lewis after that. Why? It was raining...we agree on that point.
So, based on these things, if Lewis gets the setup right, he's quicker. If it rains, he's quicker. Over the course of a race distance if he can go back to using tires that last longer, he's quicker. If he were to somehow stop drinking whatever Charlie Sheen is selling him and drive a more controlled race, he's quicker. Under current rules that require sympathy and strategy, Alonso is quicker and would be my choice if I could find someone he could beat as a teammate. Let's face it - he gets rattled easily when he has a quick teammate. So does Vettel. Lewis doesn't.
Can you tell me where I can find that he didn't have a TR chassis?
Also, I admit I'm not an avid follower of GP2 racing even though it is great racing. When did Hamilton compete against Vettel? I have a feeling you can definitely find a source for this one.
But with that in mind, I think that it's like I said - Vettel does a great job in a great car when he's not under pressure. Last year, Webber got (more?) equal treatment and was a lot more prone to giving Vettel fits. I think Seb began to overdrive for that reason and to make up for his car's unreliability early on. That's definitely his fault, but I still think that when he's calm and in the right machinery, he's as quick as anyone could be in that same car.
Lewis vs Alonso.............I've analyzed this one closely. There are all sorts of things that one could interpret from that one year at Mclaren. Here are two that come to my mind:
1) Lewis was younger ip-so-facto he's faster now than he was then.
Retort: Maybe, but I don't really think Lewis is going to get much faster. I think he walked in with as much talent as he'll ever have. I think, if anything, drivers get better at driving bad cars, setting cars up, developing cars, and managing races as they get older. Lewis did an unbelievable job as rookie because, much like Vettel's current situation now, he didn't have a huge amount of pressure on him. He had the best car but also one of the best drivers as a teammate. It was okay if he didn't beat Alonso because he was young and it wasn't expected. Toward the end of the year, it became the norm and people began to expect it. What happens? Lewis chokes.
2) Alonso is better at setting up the car than Lewis is.
Retort: None. I'm convinced of this. I can't remember which race post-Hungary 07 it was when Alonso stopped sharing setup information with Lewis. Alonso sets the car up that very track to go easier on front tires. Lewis doesn't have that information. Result? Blown front. Alonso was beaten once by Lewis after that. Why? It was raining...we agree on that point.
So, based on these things, if Lewis gets the setup right, he's quicker. If it rains, he's quicker. Over the course of a race distance if he can go back to using tires that last longer, he's quicker. If he were to somehow stop drinking whatever Charlie Sheen is selling him and drive a more controlled race, he's quicker. Under current rules that require sympathy and strategy, Alonso is quicker and would be my choice if I could find someone he could beat as a teammate. Let's face it - he gets rattled easily when he has a quick teammate. So does Vettel. Lewis doesn't.
Vettel was slower than Speed and luzzi when he got into Speed's TR chassis, He was then given a new chassis 2 or 3 races later ... Why...? from Where ? there were no TR chassis available ( according to Berger when speed was there ) grumblings on the ground at the time had it , that he had gotten an Rb chassis, hence his spectacular improvement and race victory there after and for keeping his mouth shut, luzzi was rewarded with an F1 drive and still so to this day, as all vetted employees are..
I'm a big Hamilton fan, ( I actually picked him to finish second or 3rd in his rookie year) and thought him better than Alonso going in , but not so today, no he is not better than Alonso and apparently will never be, you say he can handle a fast teammate, well Button is not one and he's not handling him well at all...
Vettel is not the "one" he is no different than Stooley faux7, a very competent driver with a perfect package and marketing . He's driving with more confidence today than he did last year, we all know success breeds this kind of confidence, what's being achieved could be done by any other top tier driver currently in F1.
I saw enuff last year to know he is not superior in speed to Webber, same as when he drove with Heidfield, same as when he drove with Luizzi , the smoke and mirrors don't work for me , I know where he's coming from..
Last edited by A.Wayne; 10-01-2013 at 03:21 PM.
09-20-2011, 09:00 PM
#307
Late Porkchops
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
^^^^^^^^^^
Wayne , every bit of that is shear conjecture make believe and horse dung about Vettel. Its about as believeable as "Aliens landed and told us to do it."
Cripes !
Not only that, but what they did or did not do in F3 dont mean squat when you get to the big leagues. There are guys that beat the NFL champs in high school or junior high or punt pass and kick. Uhhh - Ok.
They guy was obviously learning. Not only how to get better, how to win, and how to work with your guys. You know that can happen. Guys get better. Or they lose. The F1 Championship books dont show an asterik with * " got beat by Joe Turd on a different day." In the early 1980's I could pretty sure beat Senna in motorcycle racing and in arm wrestling - but they somehow left that part out of his F1 history
.
But here is something that is not folly.
It does not matter whether Red Bull gave him a chassis and the Frickin Eiffel Tower to go with it. They were free to do what they wanted. And they picked the best guy apparently. That is when the RESULTS are tallied.
Maybe they needed to see the right driver emerge. They did not have to do anything for Luzzi - they could show him the door. They do something because it helps them WIN or at least they think it gives them a better chance to win or they dont do it.
Even more so. Do you remember along about last year when the the whole Vettel thing was a mistake. Oh yeah he goes on and wins the WDC. Then he is one and done right.
Not so. He absolutely dominates the season in 13 races taking 10 poles, 8 wins, 12 podiums and leading more laps than everybody else combined in one of the most commanding and sucessful seasons in F1 history. Not only that F1 has a good year to boot.
They found a man who could race and think his way through problems and stay competitve at the same time. So what if they even said " Hmmmm ... if we can get him on pole he can win from there." That is the point of the race and of all the teams. Get the right car. The right driver. The right folks. Get pole. Get win. Get paid. Do again. It works.
It is working very good for Red Bull.
Wayne , every bit of that is shear conjecture make believe and horse dung about Vettel. Its about as believeable as "Aliens landed and told us to do it."
Cripes !
Not only that, but what they did or did not do in F3 dont mean squat when you get to the big leagues. There are guys that beat the NFL champs in high school or junior high or punt pass and kick. Uhhh - Ok.
They guy was obviously learning. Not only how to get better, how to win, and how to work with your guys. You know that can happen. Guys get better. Or they lose. The F1 Championship books dont show an asterik with * " got beat by Joe Turd on a different day." In the early 1980's I could pretty sure beat Senna in motorcycle racing and in arm wrestling - but they somehow left that part out of his F1 history
.But here is something that is not folly.
It does not matter whether Red Bull gave him a chassis and the Frickin Eiffel Tower to go with it. They were free to do what they wanted. And they picked the best guy apparently. That is when the RESULTS are tallied.
Maybe they needed to see the right driver emerge. They did not have to do anything for Luzzi - they could show him the door. They do something because it helps them WIN or at least they think it gives them a better chance to win or they dont do it.
Even more so. Do you remember along about last year when the the whole Vettel thing was a mistake. Oh yeah he goes on and wins the WDC. Then he is one and done right.
Not so. He absolutely dominates the season in 13 races taking 10 poles, 8 wins, 12 podiums and leading more laps than everybody else combined in one of the most commanding and sucessful seasons in F1 history. Not only that F1 has a good year to boot.
They found a man who could race and think his way through problems and stay competitve at the same time. So what if they even said " Hmmmm ... if we can get him on pole he can win from there." That is the point of the race and of all the teams. Get the right car. The right driver. The right folks. Get pole. Get win. Get paid. Do again. It works.
It is working very good for Red Bull.
09-20-2011, 10:29 PM
#309
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
What is it you guys are not getting ....
1. SV goes to TR to replace Scott Speed, he get's into Speed's TR chassis and is slower than Speed and Luizzi , he remains Slower than Luizzi until he is given a new chassis, a RB chassis.
2 SV is now faster then Luizzi in his RB chassis, Luizzi is still in his TR chassis , he is nothing special, there are others as good currently in F1, he is F1 marketing at it's best, another German Champion to replace there last one ...
3. SV will never beat another driver in a competitive car, like Schumacher before him , he needs the best of the best by a big margin to win, if there is ever a competitive Mclaren/Ferrari to challenge RB....It's,
Game over .......for Faux1..................
Mark are you serious, I will still be a Faux after winning again!!!
1. SV goes to TR to replace Scott Speed, he get's into Speed's TR chassis and is slower than Speed and Luizzi , he remains Slower than Luizzi until he is given a new chassis, a RB chassis.
2 SV is now faster then Luizzi in his RB chassis, Luizzi is still in his TR chassis , he is nothing special, there are others as good currently in F1, he is F1 marketing at it's best, another German Champion to replace there last one ...
3. SV will never beat another driver in a competitive car, like Schumacher before him , he needs the best of the best by a big margin to win, if there is ever a competitive Mclaren/Ferrari to challenge RB....It's,
Game over .......for Faux1..................
Mark are you serious, I will still be a Faux after winning again!!!
Last edited by A.Wayne; 10-01-2013 at 03:21 PM.
09-21-2011, 01:32 PM
#310
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
^^^^^^^^^^
Wayne , every bit of that is shear conjecture make believe and horse dung about Vettel. Its about as believeable as "Aliens landed and told us to do it."
Cripes !
Not only that, but what they did or did not do in F3 dont mean squat when you get to the big leagues. There are guys that beat the NFL champs in high school or junior high or punt pass and kick. Uhhh - Ok.
They guy was obviously learning. Not only how to get better, how to win, and how to work with your guys. You know that can happen. Guys get better. Or they lose. The F1 Championship books dont show an asterik with * " got beat by Joe Turd on a different day." In the early 1980's I could pretty sure beat Senna in motorcycle racing and in arm wrestling - but they somehow left that part out of his F1 history.
But here is something that is not folly.
It does not matter whether Red Bull gave him a chassis and the Frickin Eiffel Tower to go with it. They were free to do what they wanted. And they picked the best guy apparently. That is when the RESULTS are tallied.
Maybe they needed to see the right driver emerge. They did not have to do anything for Luzzi - they could show him the door. They do something because it helps them WIN or at least they think it gives them a better chance to win or they dont do it.
Even more so. Do you remember along about last year when the the whole Vettel thing was a mistake. Oh yeah he goes on and wins the WDC. Then he is one and done right.
Not so. He absolutely dominates the season in 13 races taking 10 poles, 8 wins, 12 podiums and leading more laps than everybody else combined in one of the most commanding and sucessful seasons in F1 history. Not only that F1 has a good year to boot.
They found a man who could race and think his way through problems and stay competitve at the same time. So what if they even said " Hmmmm ... if we can get him on pole he can win from there." That is the point of the race and of all the teams. Get the right car. The right driver. The right folks. Get pole. Get win. Get paid. Do again. It works.
It is working very good for Red Bull.
Wayne , every bit of that is shear conjecture make believe and horse dung about Vettel. Its about as believeable as "Aliens landed and told us to do it."
Cripes !
Not only that, but what they did or did not do in F3 dont mean squat when you get to the big leagues. There are guys that beat the NFL champs in high school or junior high or punt pass and kick. Uhhh - Ok.
They guy was obviously learning. Not only how to get better, how to win, and how to work with your guys. You know that can happen. Guys get better. Or they lose. The F1 Championship books dont show an asterik with * " got beat by Joe Turd on a different day." In the early 1980's I could pretty sure beat Senna in motorcycle racing and in arm wrestling - but they somehow left that part out of his F1 history
.But here is something that is not folly.
It does not matter whether Red Bull gave him a chassis and the Frickin Eiffel Tower to go with it. They were free to do what they wanted. And they picked the best guy apparently. That is when the RESULTS are tallied.
Maybe they needed to see the right driver emerge. They did not have to do anything for Luzzi - they could show him the door. They do something because it helps them WIN or at least they think it gives them a better chance to win or they dont do it.
Even more so. Do you remember along about last year when the the whole Vettel thing was a mistake. Oh yeah he goes on and wins the WDC. Then he is one and done right.
Not so. He absolutely dominates the season in 13 races taking 10 poles, 8 wins, 12 podiums and leading more laps than everybody else combined in one of the most commanding and sucessful seasons in F1 history. Not only that F1 has a good year to boot.
They found a man who could race and think his way through problems and stay competitve at the same time. So what if they even said " Hmmmm ... if we can get him on pole he can win from there." That is the point of the race and of all the teams. Get the right car. The right driver. The right folks. Get pole. Get win. Get paid. Do again. It works.
It is working very good for Red Bull.
09-21-2011, 01:58 PM
#311
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Someone buy Wayne an F'ing clue,...... please. He just fails to get it. You can speculate all you want, but you don't know Chit about what's going on inside a team. The bottom line in F1 is results and regardless of how long or many times you say something, it doesn't change the fact that Red Bull backed the right person and they have 2 consecutive WDC and 2 consecutive WCC to show for it. Bottom line. That's it. Winners not losers because at this point, it looks like Luca Di Montezemolo backed the wrong Cavalinno in Fernando Alonso who hasn't led his team to either a WDC or WCC in half a decade. Why is that so hard to comprehend????
09-21-2011, 03:32 PM
#312
Super Moderator
Needs More Cowbell
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Needs More Cowbell
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Didn't Kimi win a WDC with Ferrari before Alonso?
How could that have possibly happened?
Yup, Luca fell in love with Alon$o, no doubt.
Not to worry, I am sure he has made his opinions going forward quite clear to Bernie...this situation will not be tolerated.
How could that have possibly happened?
Yup, Luca fell in love with Alon$o, no doubt.
Not to worry, I am sure he has made his opinions going forward quite clear to Bernie...this situation will not be tolerated.
09-21-2011, 03:37 PM
#313
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Wayne is Kimi a real champion or one of your Faux champions?
09-21-2011, 06:07 PM
#314
Drifting
And no, I'm not drinking Wayne-Ade.
