M758

That is wierd. To me blocking is making two defensive moves. If you take a tight line or move to the inside to defend position the other guy needs to back out some, that is racing. To make pass you need both momentem and a place to go. To defend position take away any place for the guy to go. 1 move done well is the way do it. Weaving all over the track is blocking.

M758

There is a difference. Pro racing is racing for job. So a little contact is not the worst thing in the world. Club racing is about guys paying their own bills or doing their own body work. It is about winning nothing special and having fun. How much risk you chose to make in pass needs to countered by what gain and in club racing contact is rarely worth the reward. In pro racing if you win a have a few dents no big deal. You won. In club racing a few dents means $$$ and time to fix it all to say you won?

That is what makes it different.

M758

Racing line and racing room are not the same thing. If you are going take an apex and there is car on your bumper or even with some overlap you can still leave racing room and take the apex. Leaving racing room means that car has a place to go. They may not want to go there, but there is room to avoid a wreck. Yielding the line because the trailing car has bumper even with yours is giving up too soon. Now of course what cannot be determined from car position along is relateive speeds. If the trailing car has bumper overlap and 5mph more speed turning in will result in a crash. If he has the same speed as you turning in defending position and that guy can back out.

So while most rules talk about car position car relative speeds are key in determining how likely a crash can be.

Phokaioglaukos

I have not yet read the discussion on RacerU or the 2007 Rennlist thread (and I will read both), but I can relate the substance of a leading GrandAm racer who described being held up by a slower car, being chastised by the stewards during the race, replying to the stewards that if the slower car did not give way that he would go by one way or another and, when the slower car did not, punting it off during a pass. The stewards took no action. That is not how I expect stewards to act in PCA, SCCA, NASA or other racing.

I like the FIA approach, personally: "manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as more than one change of direction to defend a position, deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited." There is a point at which going for the apex crowds a car beyond the edge of the track or is otherwise a manoeuvre liable to hinder another driver." Note that need not be the intent, but just the effect, of the manoeuvre. Look at the drive through penalties assessed in the Monaco race on Paul and Lewis last weekend. Classic cases.

This rule does not prohibit, as I read it, a car on the inside line of a bend holding a car out into the marbles or a slower part of the track if the inside car does not crowd the car beyond the edge of the track.

M758

Winders.. you are missing one key point. A pass is a pass and they are right that a pro pass is equal to club pass. So that the actual pass is the same. When you do it go for it.

The differnce is that in club racing and pro- racing is not the action of making the pass, but the choice of when to make the pass and how hard to defend the pass. Every pass has some risk. I don't make passes in club racing that I think have high risk of contact even if is just a light tap. I just won't do it. In pro racing you look a risk differently. If you can make the pass and not wreck your car and not get penalty go for it. If either car gets a tire donut so be it.

In both cases ones you commit to the pass do it right and be assertive. If you look like you are weasling out in the lead car's mirros they will tend to slam the door on you. I said earlier in that not only is position important, but so is momentum and speed difference. An assertive pass comes with a clear speed difference and therefore it is harder to close the door. A weak pass comes with little speed differnce and high likely hood of getting the door shut hard. However in club racing there have been times I have done weak passes (faints mostly) and they stick. The guy in front thinks I have the corner and I really don't but he gives it to me anyway. Oh... well I will still take it.

winders

So, a pass at the club level is not a pass at the pro level, is it? If you have to write two long paragraphs qualifying the differences in the assertion, they can't be the same.

Scott

analogmike

Very interesting thread... I think PCA should add a concise definition of racing room and who is at fault to the rule book. The sections of the PCA rulebook iin the first post do not address that at all, only the administrative aspects.

Mike in Chi

How 'bout this? To some people they are the same, to some people they are very different. To each his own.


As for me, I thought the Professor nailed it, and I'm just a poorly financed club-racer who doesn't want his car damaged.

Potomac-Greg

It never occurred to me that "racing room" could include room behind the lead car (i.e. the ability to lift/brake and tuck in behind). Like you say, that depends on the closing speeds. And I can see where mutual trust plays a big role. If the overtaking car just has a bumper, and the lead car heads for the apex, the lead car may be "right" but that will not matter if the overtaking car does not lift/brake and takes them both out.

Sterling Doc

Good passing technique is the same.
The level of risk in doing so deemed acceptable is different.

The rest are just examples.
----------------------------

I learned this early in my racing career, the hard way.
I was making a pass on a much slower car. I left lots of room - almost drove down the inside of the track, as the car I was passing was a rookie and I wanted to give a wide berth. The other car took a late apex, and didn't see me coming. Because of my poor angle of entry, and speed difference, I couldn't back out, and hit him fairly hard in the passenger door. I was appropriately DQ'd as I was the passing car, and at that point, did not yet control the corner/have a right to the line. No surprise.

What happened next surprised me. The RD sat me down, and explained to me that this incident was due to, or at least made worst by my not being assertive enough. I was expecting a lecture on being too aggressive. He explained that if I had "skinned" the car I was passing, several good things would have resulted:
- There would be a better chance the rookie driver would know I was there
- I wouldn't have the terrible angle of entry into the corner, and could have made course corrections more easily to avoid contact.
- On a better line, I could have carried enough speed to complete most, if not all the pass by the point we contacted.
-Any contact that did happen would be minor, and not have punted the other car, resulting in an automatic DQ.

This was a very enlightening conversation, and shows that being assertive once you made the decision that a clean pass is avialable applys in club racing, as well.

Phokaioglaukos

In the Washington DC Region SCCA race school novices are taught to pass with only a couple of inches side-to-side for just the reasons stated. It's a good race school and a real bargain.

Professor Helmüt Tester

^^^This^^^ is an extraordinary bit of self-serving hooey.

In a discussion about tactical passing moves, you alone determined that what was being advocated was hazardous. YOU made the characterization that on-track tactics, acceptable to the other dicussion participants, were outside of the norm for club racing. Racers, both club & pro, with THOUSANDS of races experience, disagreed with you. You then chose to assert that "disagree" = "attack". It was not an attack, and both a broad and narrow reading of the responses reveal that...to everyone but you.

However, I will not hesitate to use the word "dilettante" in regard to your post here. That, my friend, is an attack.

gums

I know most would never agree with this, but any deviation from the racing line by the lead car is blocking. Anything different from what you would do if no one were behind you can't be anything else but a block. A little bit is defending, a lot is blatant. Simple as that.

winders

That is a bald faced lie! I never said the pass described in the (article) course was hazardous.

My basic premise was that the article was too simplistic. Then you described some tactics that I thought might be too aggressive for club racing. You said the tactics are the same at any level of racing. I disagreed....which I thought was my right but apparently is not.

Again, no where did I say the pass described in the article was hazardous.

Scott

M758

Yes trust is important. It is in fact quite hard to pin point if there is bumper overall in the braking zone. You tell of a car is taking a look to the inside, but do they have overlap or not. Tough call.... That is where you need to consider closing speeds. If the car is not side by side yet, but is clearly braking a lot later don't turn in as there will be wreck. Heck if they are going way to fast they might fly through and overshoot the turn allowing you to pass them back. If they just sticking a nose in, but are not outbraking you then don't give them more room than that need to tuck in behind. Any solid racer will sometimes try to stick a nose in just to see if the other guy gives way. They will also expect to back out of the pass. There are many times I could stick a nose in and get some overlap, but I know they I don't have corner and will get my nose chopped off. Part of racining is the trust to know that the other driver will be smart about a pass and not force his way in if there is not room. If your front bumper is to the other driver's door then you need alot more space to have "racing room". So the guy on the out side should be expected to give up some space, but if you have to hop the curb a bit or put a wheel off the the dirt at the apex don't be shocked. NASA defines racing room as 3/4 of a car width. Yes that is right they assume that you might need to put 2 wheels to make pass. Now they do look at it different if putting two off means hitting a tire barrier or other wall.

Personally I never try to run anyone into two off, but I will make them work for a pass. They need to get far upalong side of me to take the inside away. 6" to 12" of overlap is not going to cut it unless you have a ton of speed. 4-5 feet of overlap will cause me to leave room, but only enough to get by. That is unless I feel that I will lose out even more by continuing to challenge by going side by side. In that case I my give you the corner and focus in maximxing my exit speed trailing you so that I can come back in another corner.