Phokaioglaukos

I plan to start PCA club racing this year. So far I've raced under UK and German FIA rules and SCCA rules in the US, and I have heard that PCA is a bit different. I print below what I think are the relevent rules, but it seems to me that PCA looks hard at assigning fault in any contact whilst other sanctioning bodies have more specific rules (more than one move is blocking and "racing room" must be given) that use far fewer words.

One PCA racer I know told me that some drivers use the 13/13 rule offensively--chopping an overtaking car at the apex to force it to back out or risk contact and a 13. In the one PCA race I observed it did not seem as though drivers were contesting corners as I anticipated.

For those of you who have raced in PCA and with other groups, I'm interested in hearing your comparisons.

MSA Regulation 14.4.2 (which mirrors Appendix L to the FIA’s International Sporting Code, so it’s the same throughout Europe). Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out either on the right or on the left. However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as more than one change of direction to defend a position, deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences may be reported to the Clerk of Course.


SCCA GCR 6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct
A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track.

B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters.

C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room. Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.

D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7.


PCA 4. Conduct that is inappropriate to the intent and spirit of the PCA Club Racing Program jeopardizes safety or results in dangerous or damaging situations will not be tolerated. In addition to the normal discretion of the National Stewards to deal with inappropriate and unsafe conduct during all Club Race sessions, the 13/13 rule will be in effect at all PCA Club Racing events and will be imposed for such conduct. Under this rule, any incident which results in car damage will cause the following:

A. The National Stewards will collect and review all information relating to the incident, including corner worker and other observer reports, driver statements, and damage and incident reports from the PCA Club Racing National Scrutineers (National Scrutineers). In the case of an incident involving more than one car, the National Steward will make a determination of fault.

B. Drivers involved in an incident shall immediately exit the track during the session and report to the Black Flag Station and then to the 13/13 impound area, as directed. Drivers will then report to Medical and then to the National Steward and shall not be allowed on the track until being cleared by the National Steward.

C. Any driver who is found to be at fault in an incident involving more than his or her car will be:

1) Excluded from competition for the remainder of the event at which the incident occurs.

2) Placed on probation for a thirteen (13) month period by the National Steward. If during this probation period the driver is involved in another “at fault” incident, his competition privileges will be suspended for thirteen (13) months. Suspended drivers must petition for reinstatement to the PCA Club Racing National Chairman (National Chairman). Re-entry into the program will be at the discretion of the PCA Club Racing National Committee and the driver may be required to return on probation.

3) Subject to more severe penalty should the seriousness of any incident warrant it.


D. Any competitor, after having been in an incident, who fails to immediately exit the track and report to the Black Flag Station or leaves the event without talking to the National Steward, shall be presumed to be at fault.

E. Any driver who has received a 13/13 must attend the Orientation Meeting at the next race in which they compete.

F. Any competitor who has been determined to be at fault and has received a 13/13 may request a review of the determination by written (or e-mail) request to the National Chairman within thirty (30) days of the determination. Said request shall provide all documentation and/or justification as to why the determination should be reviewed.

M758

PCA has a 13/13 rule which many other series do not have. NASA CCR's actually have a 12-13 page example for different situations for different corners. It goes through and says car A position here Car B position there and due to circumstacnes car A would be at fault or car B. Then based on that there are driver points assigned and allowance for DQ's suspension etc. NASA also defines what "racing room" means.

In PCA like SCCA and NASA contact is frowned upon. In PCA if there is contact between two cars one is likely to get a 13 month probation even if it a minor incidend. Who gets it? Chances are high it will be that trying to pass, but not always. Remember one thing.. We are racing for fun and plastic trophies at best. So if you want to make pass consider the risks and determine if it worth it. If there is a 50/50 chance of crash... then it is probably not worth it. Sometimes that will mean you back out of pass only let the guy in front chop you down. If there was a crash it could be the other guy's fault, but remember you still have a damage car. So was it worth it even if you were in the "right".

If you are worried the in car video is a help to record your view of the incident. Memories never seem to be as good as incar video. Often times the best video is by a 3rd car trailing the action.

AlpharettaRK

For reasons unclear to most of us PCA has never spelled out what "racing room" means in the rule book, like NASA attempts to do. But during racing school and other occaisions (like after any incident!) it will be made clear that it is expected that racing room be given.
Cheers
Randy

Sean F

https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...highlight=chop

Jim Child

I've raced both NASA and PCA extensively. I really can't say there's a difference in the willingness to give racing room. In both organizations you'll encounter people who give plenty of racing room, and are a pleasure to race with. You'll also encounter a few people who act like you aren't there and will chop you off. In the end, regardless of the organization, it pays to know the person you're racing against. If you're racing with someone new, its best to tread carefully until you know whether you can trust them or not.

jaje

PCA - racing in a social organization that added races at the request of their members
SCCA - racing in a racing organization that is centered upon racing
NASA - racing in a racing corporation that is centered upon racing

gums

I like the SCCA explanation, it seems simplest.
I have to agree with Jim, too. Everyone seems so focused on the overtaking car, wouldn't it be nice if the overtaken knew when to give a little?

Mike in Chi

Dead on the money guys. Agree completely. And it's true at every level.

We have a new course coming on RacerUniversity.com. We asked our Pro Coach/Racer faculty members to tell us about their most memorable passes as a very instructive way to learn racecraft.

Peter Argetsinger (who has been praised for his coaching skills a couple of times recently on this board) opens up the story of his most memorable pass this way:

"The final race on the European Formula Ford Championship was at
Hockenheimring Germany with its long drafting straights and Inner
Tribune, or stadium section. We were supporting F2 again that year.

The weekend before we were at Nurburgring and I had a great dice with Roberto Moreno. We passed each back and forth on every turn. We had great respect for each other -- if Roberto was in trouble I’d move a little to give him room, and he'd reciprocate in the next turn. I beat him in that race and when we got out we were high-fiving each other and heard this
strange noise -- the huge German crowd was applauding as the F2 race
had been boring and processional, and we clearly were having fun,
racing hard and much more enjoyable to watch..."


I think we all know who we can go toe to toe with, and not worry about being driven off the track needlessly or sustaining body damage. And as above, it makes for great fun and great racing.

(For instance, Jim Child and I always give each other room... Well ok.. the truth... Jim gives me plenty of room when he motors past. )

M758

A smart racer knows when they are "beat" and know when to give up a corner. Last race I was holding a guy off for 2nd place most of the race. My pace was good, but I was little bit slower than the guy in 3rd. I sucessfully held him off most of the race by using proper car positioning. Well in my weakest spot on the track I had little too much understeer and knew I was a sitting duck. So at the next corner I saw him come along side. I could have pinched him off at apex, but I knew I was already beat. The guy had the position on me and gave up the corner because it was the right thing to do.

This was a NASA race I never even considerd who would be at fault if there was contact. I knew from experience that I had been beaten fair and square exiting the prior corner and fighting at the next apex was not smart. My competitor had both a speed edge and a better on track position. Fighiting it would probably cause a wreck and that is just not worth it. I end that race in 3rd place.

The other thing to understand is sometimes by giving up a corner you can better position yourself to come back at the guy later in the lap. Defending too deep can not just resut in crash, but getting passed by other cars or losing more ground.

The reason most of the time the guy making the pass is at fault is he can always chose to not try a pass. The trailing car also has a much better view of the situation and if there is a hole or not.

Sterling Doc

The explanation that I got was that any bumper ovelap requires the car being passed to leave "racing room", but if there was contact, to be aware that the passing car would almost always get a 13 regardless.

When I asked for clarification on what constitutes "blocking", I was told that anything that causes another driver to have to back off, or "roll out of the throttle" because of your actions, would be considered blocking.

I very much understand the motivation to reduce the risk of contact, and agree with the intent, but would agree the rules seem very fuzzy, and difficult to judge real time, and in car.

My on track experience with the PCA, has been good, though I've had limited in class/close competition so far. Out of class cars were very generous at letting me through when appropriate, IMO

winders

Based on a recent discussion, the RacerUniversity Pro Coach/Racer faculty members don't seem to think there is a difference between club racing and professional racing when it comes to what is acceptable when passing.

I got shot down when I suggested there was a difference in a discussion.

Scott

Sterling Doc

Well said, Joe. It is also a fun part of racecraft trying to keep a slightly faster in class car behind you, legally, as you were doing up to that point. Slightly overslowing certain corners strategically, using traffic to your advantage, etc. are all a part of good racing/racecraft. I respect it when it's done well to me, and am happy if I managed to beat someone in a faster car on that day. There is a point, however, when you been beaten, and need to give it up/make appropriate room. Defining when that happens as clearly is possible is important in my mind. If there is to much gray area, and each party takes an optomisitc interpretation on that, bad things happen.

Potomac-Greg

Isn't it better to say that the leading car "owns the racing line" until the passing car: (a) has bumper overlap, or (b) has a bumper on the leading car's door, (c) whatever -- and then the lead car needs to give racing room?

Seems to me that a "chop" move may be nothing more than going to the apex when you believe that you still own the racing line.

Mike in Chi

No Scott, you weren't "shot down". People didn't agree with some of your position. The entire time you were treated with respect and civility, as is the entire premise of RacerU.

You said:

"I guess we should all clarify what kind of racing we are doing here.

If we are talking pro racing where results are all that count and you don't care one lick about the the guy in the car you are trying to pass or his car....or your car for that matter....then sure.

Club racing? Things are done a bit differently.....

Scott"


Professor Helmet Tester, a racer with vast experience and a faculty member, who is also very deep into club racing at an important level, said:

No, they are not.

An assertive pass is the safest pass. The most dangerous ones are the wishy-washy ones.

Nothing in my advice gave any fuel to the "you must not care about anyone's car" meme. That's nonsense.

The closer I am to you, the less likely you are to hit me hard, if at all. You know I'm there (you see it, hear it and feel it), and you don't have enough distance in the lateral vectors to build any speed if you do turn into me.

The goal is to control the situation. "Control" means choosing "my preferences", and denying "your preferences". It's assertive. It's aggressive. But it's certainly not hazardous or unsportsmanlike.

Doesn't matter if it's a dinky little SCCA regional race, a big-time national race or a pro race. This is how it works.

It's not the "puppies & rainbows" answer that certain clubs would like to think is reality (even though it's not), but it's way that serious racing...club or pro...happens."

BTW, I think that is exceptional passing and racing advice, no matter what the level, no matter what the club. When I go out there I want to win, or get as close as I can to winning. And by the way, I've never been given a 13.

All

This is from a fascinating discussion that stemmed from a course on basic passing. And Scott did make some good points. The Professor had a couple other great points in there as well. If you'd like to see the tenor of the discussion for yourself, go to RacerUnivesity.com and do the free registration.

winders

M in C,

This is the telling quote to what he said when I said that things are done a bit differently in club racing:

"No, they are not."

So, yes, my statement that passing is done differently in club racing got shot down....disagreed with...poo pooed....whatever you want to call it.

As someone that has raced motorcycles at the club level and with AMA Pro racers, I can tell you that passing is done differently at the club and pro levels. I suspect the same is true in cars. But, not according to your staff.....

I can tell you that what I have seen happen at the Pro level would get you kicked off the track with PCA and NASA. But hey, what do I know???

Scott