You're now trying to claim that you comments were aimed strictly at the "course", but not at the discussion that followed. Lol, again. Revisionist history. You suck at the "debate" thing. "Weasel words", my friend..."weasel words".

You made this statement - If that isn't a statement about "hazard", what is ?

Your attempts to twist the elements of the discussion to favor your opinion are a waste of time for other participants in the discussion.

No amount of weeping and howling will change the basic facts that experienced racers (not to mention "Stewards" and "Chief Stewards" who have to deal with this stuff, after the fact) in that thread (and there were some of each, actually) disagreed with you then, and disagree with you now.

 

Frank, what does "a little bit" mean, and to whom?

"One move" is clear. Take your pick - defensive line, or racing line. Once you've made that move, I know you have to stick with that, and can make my decisions from there with confidence.

IMO, a defensive line, blatent or not, is not "blocking". You make your choice of tactics for a given corner, now I can respond. Blocking is clearly defined when it means making more than one move. Doing that makes you unpredictable, and thus dangerous.

 

Agreed. IMO this would really benefit everyone, and make some 13-13 penalties appear to be more objective and less subjective.
Wow. Why so angry? Lighten up, dude. He didn't rape your mom. Stop acting like he did. Sheesh...

 

Who are you anyway? Do you always hide behind your pseudonym?

The pass you described, to which I made my comment your quoted, can certainly result in a wreck. I have seen it many time in motorcycle and car races. The passer is to ambitious and the person being passed either doesn't expect the late braking maneuver or does not want to give the line.

My position has always been that you are not going to be able to safely make the pass from a car length or more back unless you are faster than the car you are passing, can brake better than the car/driver you are passing, or the driver you are passing makes a mistake.

You said said that you can pull it off from a car length back if you "totally screw the other guy out of track position...and make HIS line and position worse than YOURS....and make his "throttle-on" equal or after yours".

While I agree that is the actual goal, doing that from a car length back has its issues. Why? Because by the time you are up next to the car you are trying to pass, he may have turned in to the apex already. Or, he might not see you because he did not expect the pass to be attempted. You are forcing the issue here. If there is contact at this point, who gets the blame?? This is the pro racing versus club racing difference I alluded to in my post.

Now, are you going to attack me again?

Scott

 

I had a great race with a friend at Mid Ohio a few weeks ago. We were running very close and I was behind him for almost the entire race. And he drove RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE of the track lap after lap. Either I was going to have to force a high risk pass tight down the inside or try and go around wide on the outside (yeah right).

Anyway, it was awesome racing on his part and I learned a lot chasing him. And I did NOT consider it blocking at all.

 

The big problem today in club racing is chopping. Whether or not the pass was totally complete in club racing one should leave racing room. I see it all the time more and more frequent so called racers think they are the next RedBull Challenge candidate for an F1 ride. In club racing the idea is we leave room for one another and not to swoop across the track to try and chop a fellow racer. I am not saying give up your position and I am not saying don't drive side by side through a turn. Just leave the guy a car width, I guarantee you will have more fun in the long run.

Its always funny how when I race against the front runners in almost any sanctioning body the racing is so much cleaner then if you have to race against the mid pack guys. Just think about it: If a guy is faster then you leave him room and if he gets by maybe you just might learn were he is faster and improve your own driving.

Sorry to ramble but we dont do a good enough job teaching this to our new drivers or they just are not getting it.

 

3 excellent points IMO. Club racing IS for fun. It is full of highly competitive people, to be sure. But in the end it is for FUN. Watch videos from Fred C or Leh Keen or a number of other really good, fast, clean racers. They don't chop, they make clean passes, they wave & acknowledge when folks give them racing room, and hopefully folks wave back this is reciprocated. As you said, that does not mean be a wuss & give up w/o being competitive. It does mean respecting your fellow racers.

 

[QUOTE=Steve113;8606931]The big problem today in club racing is chopping. Whether or not the pass was totally complete in club racing one should leave racing room.


#1 Only been racing for three years and I find clean common sense racing to be the rule with the vast majority of racers, but some chops are ridiculous, and they are encouraged by the PCA policy on "fault". I recently had contact, and the steward was very clear that if the video did not conclusively prove that my front bumper was not past the front bumper of the slower car I was lapping he was entitled to dive for the apex as if I were not there and I would be "thirteened". Fortunately most racers are more concerned with avoiding contact than just avoiding a sanction, but if not they can recklessly run into you with no risk of a 13. THIS NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED, and replaced with a more common sense policy

 

This last weekend at Laguna Seca I had a chance to make passes on a lot of cars of differing speed and lap time potential. Normally I've been out racing with other Cup cars, so the passes tend to unfold nearly the same in most cases because the corner and straight speeds of the cars tend to be very similar. At the SCCA races, we had cars super fast in the straights and slower in the corners, cars great in the corners and slow in the straights, great under braking (basically everyone except me :P) and fast or slow everywhere else.

Many of the cars were running similar lap times, but the way they went about it were different. Some were 700hp monsters, and some were light 250hp gokarts. Depending on the car it would often dictate the most efficient way to get around them.

'The Chop' is the thing I worry about most when making passes on somebody. I'm not worried about them doing it on purpose, I worry about them doing it because they don't see me, or because they don't realize the strengths of my race car versus theirs and are totally not expecting me to pass there (can you say outside of T3 into T4 at thunderhill?!). I've probably done it to other people (on accident), and I've had people do it to me. But, it totally sucks.

This last weekend I was holding off a really really really fast tube framed Corvette, in practice he was about 2 seconds a lap faster than me (which was about the speed my car should have been going, but i was the weakest link), and *much* *much* faster in the straights. I somehow managed to hold him off for 2 laps without blocking in our second race, and I wasn't even driving defensively (i was worried about my friend who was behind him catching up if i slowed myself down). But, I think I was just fast enough in the braking zones and turn-in where he couldn't get far enough next to me to keep me from turning in. He was probably getting frustrated, and he did end up passing me into T11 (sharp u-turn). He was really far back, and if I didn't know he was a really good driver I'd be a little annoyed that he threw it in there so aggressively. Luckily, I caught him out of the corner of my eye while we were still under braking and he slid up next to me all crossed up on the inside rite when I started to turn into the corner. I was planning to go 2 wide around it on the outside, but since he was crossed up under braking I over slowed and turned in later to try and get back under him. Here's an in-car of the pass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SPzCtj8_Hs

The reason I mention it is because that's about as aggressive of a pass I'd expect in club racing. I wouldn't expect more from anyone, and I wouldn't do it (on purpose) to anyone else. It was a totally clean pass, but if it had been me making the pass and the other person wasn't really paying attention, there could have easily been solid contact. It might have been a 'racing incident', but I think we'd all agree that those should be avoided when possible in club racing.

99% of all the passes, either for position or getting around slower traffic, in the club races I've done (which isn't a massive amount) have been done with plenty of racing room given by both parties. With one exception (Pirelli Cup race at TH), I'm positive the chops and close calls I've been involved with were simply due to the car ahead not realizing they were being passed- when I was clearly in a position they *should* have seen me.

-mike

 

I've posted this before and we all have examples of being chopped.

http://vimeo.com/5158870

 

That's called a dive bomb and not necessarily a safe, controlled pass - it's a good pass in racing since he was able to get to your door before your turn-in...you were nice and probably saved a ton of money by not letting him t-bone you.

This type of pass happens a lot in club racing - and usually ends up with contact...

Next time, take the inside line and defend and see if he can hold that Corvette on the exit of Turn 11 on the outside! LOL - good job and great driving!

 

dive bomb

http://vimeo.com/6390787

 

[QUOTE=U4EEAH;8607202]I agree wholeheartedly, PCA's vague 13 is used as a weapon by those who want to take advantage of it. The "sharing" the corner talk just leads to more confusion since it's usually contradictory to right of way and who believes they had a tow hook, bumper, door, or complete overlap on the other car.

I think that once bumper overlap occurs sharing a corner should be a requirement of both cars, and people just need to more aware of who's around them. Most 13's start with "I didn't see him" or "someone just hit me out of nowhere". It's even worse when your in a spec car.

 

I believe he had the "right of way" being in front into the braking zone for better or worse, I wish we had better rules regarding racing room instead of handing complete control of the corner to the car in front be it an foot or a car length.

 

we were side by side at turn in - i hit the brakes just before the apex so he wouldn't hit me. He was supposed to give me room. He didn't have to give me corner, but he did have to give me room to go through the corner with him.

The baseline rule for PCA is "give each other room"