ASK THE COACH
03-16-2018, 10:58 AM
#3046
As I said delta between compounds is huge, but I like your thinking as far as trying to maximize your abilities on street tire before jumping to R comp or stickier.
I recommend that folks starting out stay with street tires as long as they can to learn how to manage slipping around to develop better car control but at lower speeds. However, once you can easily predict and catch slides or work out of understeer then it's time to move to R comp. NT01's are the gold standard for HPDE r comps. Re71rs are another excellent tire that some think are slightly faster but I don't think last as long as NT01's.
Let me just re-iterate my own and Kevin's point though at intermediate level this should be obvious to you, you cannot compare corner speeds of your very heavy, under tired car to Foss or any other GTS2 car. Doesn't matter how much power you have because cornering speed has very little to do with power but everything to do with weight, suspension, aero and tire compound assuming lines are the same. I am not surprised your equipment is 5-10 mph slower through the higher speed corners. So in this case blame the equipment. But also know that part of driver development is to understand these things.
So you want differences between compounds?
I'd say that 1:32 is an ok time on your setup. I doubt Foss could match his GTS2 times in your car but he could probably go faster.
R comps would be worth another 3-5 seconds over summers. So 1:27 to 1:29 all other things being equal for you.
Scrub Hoosiers would get you to 1:25's.
Sticker Hoosiers would get you to 1:22's.
Shaving 800 pounds and going full track prep would get you to 1:17's. See Ken Orgerons video.
In NASA GTS and TT/ST, the cars are classed by wt to power. I believe GTS2 is 14:1. So Foss' car probably weighs 2800 lbs. let's assume your car is putting 350 to wheels , your wt to power is ~11. If you look through TT2 (8:1) and TT3 (10:1) , you'll see mid 1:25's for a lot of these drivers even they are all running Hoosiers or R comps. But Tt4 and Tt5 guys were breaking into teens, because of their lightness (and drivers). MSRC doesn't really allow the ponies to run free. Light cars with sticky tires will have an advantage over car like yours.
I recommend that folks starting out stay with street tires as long as they can to learn how to manage slipping around to develop better car control but at lower speeds. However, once you can easily predict and catch slides or work out of understeer then it's time to move to R comp. NT01's are the gold standard for HPDE r comps. Re71rs are another excellent tire that some think are slightly faster but I don't think last as long as NT01's.
Let me just re-iterate my own and Kevin's point though at intermediate level this should be obvious to you, you cannot compare corner speeds of your very heavy, under tired car to Foss or any other GTS2 car. Doesn't matter how much power you have because cornering speed has very little to do with power but everything to do with weight, suspension, aero and tire compound assuming lines are the same. I am not surprised your equipment is 5-10 mph slower through the higher speed corners. So in this case blame the equipment. But also know that part of driver development is to understand these things.
So you want differences between compounds?
I'd say that 1:32 is an ok time on your setup. I doubt Foss could match his GTS2 times in your car but he could probably go faster.
R comps would be worth another 3-5 seconds over summers. So 1:27 to 1:29 all other things being equal for you.
Scrub Hoosiers would get you to 1:25's.
Sticker Hoosiers would get you to 1:22's.
Shaving 800 pounds and going full track prep would get you to 1:17's. See Ken Orgerons video.
In NASA GTS and TT/ST, the cars are classed by wt to power. I believe GTS2 is 14:1. So Foss' car probably weighs 2800 lbs. let's assume your car is putting 350 to wheels , your wt to power is ~11. If you look through TT2 (8:1) and TT3 (10:1) , you'll see mid 1:25's for a lot of these drivers even they are all running Hoosiers or R comps. But Tt4 and Tt5 guys were breaking into teens, because of their lightness (and drivers). MSRC doesn't really allow the ponies to run free. Light cars with sticky tires will have an advantage over car like yours.
04-24-2018, 06:13 AM
#3047
Here's an interesting post from the Paradigm Shift Racing's site that I thought I'd share:
https://www.paradigmshiftracing.com/...echnique-myths
https://www.paradigmshiftracing.com/...echnique-myths
04-24-2018, 08:19 AM
#3048
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04-24-2018, 10:08 AM
#3050
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Conceptually, his opinions raise good questions, sort of like an “in a perfect world” scenario.
Practically, bolstered by real world instances supported by data from drivers functioning and executing at the highest level, my experience is that some of these assertions are at odds with actual practice.
It’s not “agree or disagree,” it just doesn’t jibe with mine and many other highly experienced instructors and professional coaches experiences, as well as several established professional school curricula.
Adam has contributed to the discussion well, encouraging some drivers to think in new ways and allowing themselves to transcend their own barriers to improvement. So it’s all good.
It’s been hashed over in other threads and we’ve personally agreed to disagree. That’s all.
This is is a great thread for sharing all kinds of perspectives. This is just one more.
Practically, bolstered by real world instances supported by data from drivers functioning and executing at the highest level, my experience is that some of these assertions are at odds with actual practice.
It’s not “agree or disagree,” it just doesn’t jibe with mine and many other highly experienced instructors and professional coaches experiences, as well as several established professional school curricula.
Adam has contributed to the discussion well, encouraging some drivers to think in new ways and allowing themselves to transcend their own barriers to improvement. So it’s all good.
It’s been hashed over in other threads and we’ve personally agreed to disagree. That’s all.
This is is a great thread for sharing all kinds of perspectives. This is just one more.
04-24-2018, 10:11 AM
#3051
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Thread Starter
Like everything on RL, your mileage may vary 
04-24-2018, 03:36 PM
#3052
Burning Brakes
Here's an interesting post from the Paradigm Shift Racing's site that I thought I'd share:
https://www.paradigmshiftracing.com/...echnique-myths
https://www.paradigmshiftracing.com/...echnique-myths
-mike
04-24-2018, 04:02 PM
#3053
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Hahaha! I doubt you're "doing it wrong."
As a matter of fact, you're the poster child for the fact that performance levels of pros CAN be met by drivers starting later and studying assiduously.
Congrats and good luck this week.
As a matter of fact, you're the poster child for the fact that performance levels of pros CAN be met by drivers starting later and studying assiduously.
Congrats and good luck this week.
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04-28-2018, 07:40 PM
#3055
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04-28-2018, 08:01 PM
#3056
Originally Posted by Speeds5
Peter, what specifically out of those "5 myths" you don't agree with him on? No need to go into details just curious which ones
04-29-2018, 01:31 AM
#3057
Rennlist Member
i'm just trying to learn, i don't care which method as long as it results in lower lap time. As much as this stuff is backed up by data it's also very subjective. what might work for one guy and his car might not work for the other. To be able to compare two points of view, you'd need to do a study with the same car, same driver, same tires, same conditions, back to back to back. Not easily done.
I have not yet seen any data presented that refutes Adam's views. Not saying it's not out there but the conversation has never got to that level. I know there are several of us that would really like to understand the counter view more fully but I think we've settled on "agree to disagree."
04-29-2018, 07:56 PM
#3058
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Learning the sport and have a question about taking a later apex:
is it true that all else being equal, a later apex requires less entry speed than an earlier apex (because more initial arc/steering input is needed)? (of course with the benefit of greater exit speed)
There are some corners where a later apex is obviously optimal and yet I am having to force myself to turn in later. I think part of the challenge is I feel like it requires too much steering input at a given speed. Mental barrier here somewhere.. and I think taking more speed off at entry, turning in later, and then consciously getting back on it earlier is the key - just want to confirm the theory.
Thanks
Matty
is it true that all else being equal, a later apex requires less entry speed than an earlier apex (because more initial arc/steering input is needed)? (of course with the benefit of greater exit speed)
There are some corners where a later apex is obviously optimal and yet I am having to force myself to turn in later. I think part of the challenge is I feel like it requires too much steering input at a given speed. Mental barrier here somewhere.. and I think taking more speed off at entry, turning in later, and then consciously getting back on it earlier is the key - just want to confirm the theory.
Thanks
Matty
05-07-2018, 07:45 PM
#3059
I've raced in conference and scca for many years. Mostly production rear wheel drive. After running my first stab at a 996 last week, I've decided that I don't really know anything about racing. The 996 is not as powerful as I was expecting. It's forcing me to shape up my driving skills and drive it more like a monentum car... So far I'm pretty slow.
Last edited by gtred; 05-08-2018 at 10:21 PM.
05-19-2018, 01:03 PM
#3060
Learning the sport and have a question about taking a later apex:
is it true that all else being equal, a later apex requires less entry speed than an earlier apex (because more initial arc/steering input is needed)? (of course with the benefit of greater exit speed)
There are some corners where a later apex is obviously optimal and yet I am having to force myself to turn in later. I think part of the challenge is I feel like it requires too much steering input at a given speed. Mental barrier here somewhere.. and I think taking more speed off at entry, turning in later, and then consciously getting back on it earlier is the key - just want to confirm the theory.
Thanks
Matty
is it true that all else being equal, a later apex requires less entry speed than an earlier apex (because more initial arc/steering input is needed)? (of course with the benefit of greater exit speed)
There are some corners where a later apex is obviously optimal and yet I am having to force myself to turn in later. I think part of the challenge is I feel like it requires too much steering input at a given speed. Mental barrier here somewhere.. and I think taking more speed off at entry, turning in later, and then consciously getting back on it earlier is the key - just want to confirm the theory.
Thanks
Matty
It's best if you can separate in your mind the car control from the line. Understand what the ideal line would be, but your current car control abilities dictate how close to that ideal you can get. So as you are always going to be limited by your current car control abilities, It also helps to understand which side of ideal is best to err on. I.e. acceleration at the apex is ideal, but from a lap time standpoint, early acceleration is better than late acceleration.