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I think it's possible the NT01s are not done yet, I won't know until I do the post weekend inspection.
-Mike
They are done. I noticed unloading the trailer that the right rear just has just started to cord on the outside of the tread.
Car felt really good this weekend. I had a good student in a brand new Camaro ZL1. Car was very impressive and nicely setup for the track bone stock. Big step up for Chevy.
Mike and I continued the conversation at TWS this weekend. He accused me of “cheating” in the M3 and I totally agree. My driving style in the M3 had evolved into trail brake until the back end comes around, then get on the throttle until the back end comes around. Boom…at the limit…done. I found this will get you to 1:56s on NT01s at TWS in my car, but not 1:55s. Apparently my driving is like nails on a chalk board to instructors, who see me on the track and feel compelled to tell me I could be so much faster if I was smooth….
So I bought the Miata and tried driving the way I drove the M3 w/o success. Doing lead follows with 2 instructors this weekend my PB from 2:07.87 first weekend in car to 2:05.09 Went from 100TW rain tires to heat cycled 40 TW scrubs, which were still fairly easy to break loose. I was told if I can run 2:04-2:05 in spec Miata races at TWS I won’t be fast, but I won’t embarrass myself.
I definitely think what I’ve learned in the Miata will improve my M3 skills. My husband says I’m one of the most right brained people on the planet – I was trying to read the Skip Barber book and it said, “With a bit of trigonometry we can determine…” and I’m thinking WTH would I do a bit of trigonometry when I can feel it in my butt?
Top 3 lessons from weekend:
Turn 3: You can apex later and use the camber to bring the back end around carrying more speed.
Turn 6: Later apex and slide use the bowl to bring the car around.
Turn 14: Proper lift will bring back end around so you are not cranking steering wheel.
I thought gloves were stupid in the M3 in DE, esp at 100+ degrees. Ok…fire…but in shorts and t shirt the rest of me will be toast. No power steering I was really having to crank the wheel, esp 7-9. Wondering if I need to work more on less steering input….
And yes, I appreciate all the tough love…watching Scott do ITS…instructing is a challenge I’m not sure I’d ever be up for….
Boom…at the limit…done. I found this will get you to 1:56s on NT01s at TWS in my car, but not 1:55s. Apparently my driving is like nails on a chalk board to instructors, who see me on the track and feel compelled to tell me I could be so much faster if I was smooth….
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Speaking for myself, my judgement of your driving from external observation on the track is not nearly that harsh. Sub 2 minute laps at TWS in almost any car are a decent performance considering the M3 always looked poised and it didn't look like you were relying on active driver aids.
Originally Posted by sierralima
I definitely think what I’ve learned in the Miata will improve my M3 skills. My husband says I’m one of the most right brained people on the planet – I was trying to read the Skip Barber book and it said, “With a bit of trigonometry we can determine…” and I’m thinking WTH would I do a bit of trigonometry when I can feel it in my butt?
There is nothing wrong with understanding the physics. No, you are not going to do some long form mathematical solution at speed on the track, but understanding how the numbers move around as you change line, weight balance, traction, etc can help. One of the really cool things about this hobby is the way the brain can solve the continuously changing physics equation while it is piloting a vehicle around the race track. It is rather close to rocket science and uses the same physics.
The thing about that butt feeling is the input to your brain through it is so fast relative to your other senses. Your brain can process an input from it much faster than it can through vision or hearing.
Both left and right brained approaches work, you should use the one most comfortable to you, but don't be afraid to dabble a bit in the other side.
Originally Posted by sierralima
Top 3 lessons from weekend:
Turn 3: You can apex later and use the camber to bring the back end around carrying more speed.
Turn 6: Later apex and slide use the bowl to bring the car around.
Turn 14: Proper lift will bring back end around so you are not cranking steering wheel.
It is very easy to early apex T3. I have to consciously wait for it, or I go early.
T6 apex is right in the middle of T6, it is not late. Turn is starts very early and entry speed helps. As I enter T5, I look left at the T6 flag station, scan to the apex, and scan to T6 entry and set the car in the arch. Scan back to the apex (out the driver's side door window), a slight brake tap and slight tightening of the wheel to rotate a bit more and its fully back on the gas before the apex while looking down track towards T7. The brake tap is not to slow the car down, it is just for rotation. The bowl is used to catch the car. The turn in is early, but it is not an early apex. To me TWS T5-T6 is very much like TWS T1-T2.
Nothing wrong with a bit of throttle steering in T14 and many other places. Turning the steering wheel slows the car down, so minimizing steering inputs is a good thing.
Originally Posted by sierralima
And yes, I appreciate all the tough love…watching Scott do ITS…instructing is a challenge I’m not sure I’d ever be up for….
I don't see any reason why instructing wouldn't be in your future if you wanted to do it. You can learn a lot from instructing and it's fun as well.
-Mike
Last edited by TXE36; 08-17-2015 at 03:24 PM.
Reason: T5 not T6
I don't see any reason why instructing wouldn't be in your future if you wanted to do it. You can learn a lot from instructing and it's fun as well.
-Mike
Tell her to put her hands behind her back. Now tell her to stick out her left hand. When you see how long that takes, you will understand. A right/left dyslexia kind of thing.
The faster you get the less you will use late apexes.....
Before my lack of clarity in communication leads to 2 pages of discussion....
I think what I was doing in turn 3 and 6 was apexing on the slightly early side. So by later apex I probably mean closer to a more ideal position.
I've been told I (too) heavy trail brake. Esp in the Miata the back end wants to snap around.
VR taught me the crabbing in thing, which I like because the earlier turn in keeps the back end behind the car and feels more balanced to me. But I've also been told fairly recently in turn 3 in the M3 I was early apexing.
Turn 6 apparently I was doing all wrong. ;-) I was able to increase my speed through turn 5 10 MPH in the M3 (after comparing VR data to mine), which resulted in a longer straight line brake before turn 6. In the Miata it is a much lighter brake and I'm doing a different line.
Tell her to put her hands behind her back. Now tell her to stick out her left hand. When you see how long that takes, you will understand. A right/left dyslexia kind of thing.
Where did you come from?
Right and left are the same thing. I can't tell them apart.
BTW, Mike, I didn't take our conversation to be harsh. It was what I was trying to say about moving to lower HP to work on some weaknesses I knew I had.
I didn't want to be this guy, either ;-)
PS I'm trying to learn engineer, but it will never be my native tongue. ;-)
T6 apex is right in the middle of T6, it is not late. Turn is starts very early and entry speed helps. As I enter T5, I look left at the T6 flag station, scan to the apex, and scan to T6 entry and set the car in the arch. Scan back to the apex (out the driver's side door window), a slight brake tap and slight tightening of the wheel to rotate a bit more and its fully back on the gas before the apex while looking down track towards T7. The brake tap is not to slow the car down, it is just for rotation. The bowl is used to catch the car. The turn in is early, but it is not an early apex. To me TWS T5-T6 is very much like TWS T1-T2.
-Mike
Mike - what is your entry speed into 6? What is your exit speed? What is Dave's? I am at 91 slowing down to 71 per AIM data. I found that I could do what you said in Miata (i.e just a tap), but have to slow down with E46 M3. My car weighs 2950 with me. I would suspect your car may be tad lighter. But I think we should be able to carry similar speeds through with similar tires. I think I can carry more speed than I am though.
Which tires are you on with those numbers? NT01s I managed 90 at least once (since Dave did it ;-)), but usually 88-89. I try to jab to full throttle between 5 and 6 depending on how settled the car is, but usually only manage 60-70% - I can usually only manage around 68 in 6, but my new Miata line and using the bowl to rotate may help with that.
Which tires are you on with those numbers? NT01s I managed 90 at least once (since Dave did it ;-)), but usually 88-89. I try to jab to full throttle between 5 and 6 depending on how settled the car is, but usually only manage 60-70% - I can usually only manage around 68 in 6, but my new Miata line and using the bowl to rotate may help with that.
I think my car is 3400-3600?
I guess I can go faster. I have a 66 min speed on Maxxis and a 71 min speed on Z214 C51's through 6.
08-17-2015, 12:35 PM
I found this will get you to 1:56s on NT01s at TWS in my car, but not 1:55s. Apparently my driving is like nails on a chalk board to instructors, who see me on the track and feel compelled to tell me I could be so much faster if I was smooth….
