I'm attributing my last off to trying to keep up with you. We were on equal tires at that time.

 

PS Since this is an advice thread I will help you guys out.

VR - Start working on your Norwegian accent. It is the key to tgavem's devastating charm.

TM - Fairly certain the difference in our Miata times is due to Scott repeatedly warning me not to flat spot the tires w/ no ABS. My desire to avoid dealing the the aftermath of that outcome was greater than my fear of not using the brakes.

 

LOL! I believe you would be astounded at just in how many varied accents I can credibly speak...

 

You may be surprised I do not find this astounding at all.

(I figure eventually I'll have a flipping the bird post directed at me)

Unexpected track day yesterday. Still processing....

"Clean up on turn 17." Thanks, TM!

 

I was trying to think of how to phrase this question….

(I just signed up for Speed Secrets Performance Driving online course. I’m trying to read the Skip Barber Going Faster book, but my right brain struggles to stay focused on all the technical talk.)

So different track w/ new car this weekend. This is a slower, tighter course than TWS. I figured out how to brake and rotate the back end to maintain speed going into 90 degree or greater turns, but when there is a second turn in a series I felt I would overslow the car.

In the M3 I can easily get on the throttle to help bring the rear of the car around. In the GT3 I would wait until the car was pointed more the direction I want to go and give it 100%. I try to throttle steer the Miata and there is no throttle.

So I’m thinking I need to carry speed through the turn faster than I think I can maintain traction then use the steering input to help bring the back end around?

We need to get the passenger seat in. I did ride in an instructor’s Miata and do some lead follow with him first thing. I could catch him going into the turns, but he would pull away from me coming out of the turns. He said he had about 120 HP to my 108 or so. He left early so I couldn’t follow up.

If this car had ABS and HP it would be so much more fun…but I like I’m learning “old school” driving.

I did end up in a gravel trap with a flat spotted tire figuring out the brake lock up thing...waving at rubberneckers coming out of hot pits. Like I said, the Miata is a punishing teacher.

 

What track/which corner complex?

 

Did you regularly get in to the ABS in the M3? I ask, because I almost never do, even in the wet. I've sometimes wondered if this was because I was braking like a boss or braking like a wuss. What goes on in my head is keeping the car balanced. I also trail brake *a lot*. Perhaps too much.

As for the track, I'm guessing MSRH.

-Mike

 

I am loathe to ever have ABS engage on track in any car equipped with it that I drive.

 

The ABS can be a great learning tool for people, especially as they learn to trailbrake. In my opinion, it's a tool, just like lots of other things, and can really help when used appropriately. But, don't hit a screw with a hammer.

 

To each their own.

My view is that is ABS comes on with a dry track, one is braking too hard and/or too suddenly.

In the wet, of course, it can be a major safety benefit...

 

Can you expand on this? The reason I ask is I can't get anywhere near brake levels that will engage ABS when trail braking without spinning the car.

Last weekend I was playing with more aggressive trailbraking and this happened:

Nowhere near ABS levels and only a tiny bit more than the previous lap.

-Mike

 

In the wet, it is very handy on a track with a lot of ponding. The MSRH front straight is horrible and you go through the braking zone with the ABS tripping intermittently on all four corners as there is no clean, puddle free line when it is raining. Without ABS, the braking zone is just going to be longer and/or you just intermittently lock up all four corners.

-Mike

 

I completely agree. It's a great tool because as people learn trailbraking, if they get into the ABS at all, they are braking too hard for how much turning they are doing. I don't consider it ABS a band aid, but it can be used to teach where the limit is.

This is one of the cases where data on the video makes things much easier. I would say you were a little heavy fisted with the braking. Think of carrying the brakes into the corner as the opposite of throttle on exit. You are very precise with the throttle to let the car just drift/slide out to the edge of the track. Trailbraking is the opposite, you apply just enough to generate the slip angle and rotation you want so you arrive at the apex at the proper angle.

I don't know how the ABS is in your car. In newer Porsches, it's sensitive enough that you can use it to gauge how close you are to the traction limits of the tires.

 

Oh, I know I was as it was something I was intentionally playing with. I do have TM data and I've been meaning to get RaceRender, so I'll see what I can do.
I suspect the ABS in a late '90s BMW E36 is pretty crude compared with a modern Porsche. I'm wondering if what you are feeling in the P-car is a bit of the PSM that cannot be disabled. This is my current thinking:

Pure ABS functions to keep a wheel from locking up by detecting the rapid deceleration of the tire before lockup and responds by releasing brake pressure and then mechanically "pumping the brakes". It really shouldn't have any idea of the car's rotation. Consider a car that is being trail braked. The weight is focused on the outside front wheel - more brake pressure puts more weight on the front wheel. The question is: Does the rear wheel start to lock before it looses lateral grip? Again, as long as the wheel isn't locking, the ABS won't know about the weight transfer and it will not pulse the brake - but if the lateral grip is insufficient, the car will spin.

If you add into this, some rotational information being fed into the ABS controller, as well as brake pressure and steering angle, then the ABS could figure out the car is in a trail braked induced oversteer and it could pulse the ABS to reduce the front weight bias. I think this may be what the Porsche is doing.

Admittedly, I made all this up and it does hinge on the idea that a rear tire loosing lateral grip won't also try to lock. I am sure, however, that both of my E36 M3s will be looping from trailbraking long before the ABS goes off.

-Mike

 

E36 M3 ABS is 3 channel: one channel for each front wheel & one channel for both rears together.