TXE36

One caution to those in street cars with stiff springs, the factory suspension points may not like all the pounding. Found this after last weekend. Fixable, but I'll be staying off curbs. I think that right picture is from my consistently hitting the right side apex curb at T14 of TWS.

-Mike

ProCoach

I disagree. While there is gratuitous curb-bashing by folks emulating Touring Car and Australian SuperCar racers, proper use of curbs is an essential and fundamental skill.

How the car is influenced is not uniform, as VR points out. It depends on the curbing profile, whether or not the throttle is on or off (or WHERE, in between), how much steering input is being used, whether or not there is a "pocket" that LOADS the car in such a way in roll, that the curbing is not harmful, and of course, the compliance (or not) of the suspension.

There are curbs like NJMP TBolt T2, Mid Ohio Keyhole exit, MRLS T3 and myriads of others that are to be used as an extension of the pavement INSIDE the corner radius.

There are others, like VIR T5 and MRLS T10, that the car is so heavily loaded (and the repave has raised the relative height of the asphalt in relation to the curbing) that the inside wheel is barely along for the ride.

Nothing can prepare better for assessing whether the use of curbs is helpful or harmful than a track walk, and a detailed examination of all aspects of the relevant curbing.

Of course, in older cars, like the one pictured above, fatigue can play a part, too.

AdamBrouillard

Speaking of curb profiles, I really wish there was a uniform standard. One nice thing about autocross is that the edges are clearly defined and you don't have to do suspension adjustments to figure out if maybe you can change the effective track edge some. I wouldn't mind cones or some sort of clearly defined point that you hit and get a drive through penalty or something. I guess walls work, but that's a bit more of a penalty than I like.

Peter, doesn't VIR have some of the FIA curbs now? What is that like? I really don't know much about the FIA specs on all that and how uniform they all are.

ProCoach

Adam, the FIA curbing that has been added is only backed up against the original profile (much more friendly) to keep drivers from dipping wheels into the dirt. It doesn't help...

Here's detail on some of the common FIA positive gradient and negative gradient, as well as "sausage" and "deterrent" (on the backside) curbing profiles used at COTA, for instance.

TXE36

I had a mishap on Sunday that could have ended very badly. In my studying of the video and asking local experts I've come to the conclusion that I was too slow in applying countersteer. My question is what to do with my feet.

Picture the car loaded up in a turn. The rear end starts coming around. I assume lifting is bad, but what if the rear tires light up? Even if lit up, is more gas better, theorizing that more weight back there may help?

Anyway here is the vid. It is a freaking miracle that I touched the tire wall and didn't damage the car significantly and it will literally buff out:


I've got a thick skin and I know I messed up. I wasn't even going very fast, but the incident did surprise me. Just looking to learn here.

-Mike

Greg Smith

It's pretty common for E36's to do this, especially those with camber plates which have a ring above them that creates a stress riser. At minimum you should be running the OEM E36 strut tower reinforcement plates, for that repair I would recommend something thicker than that though. We've made repairs on several cars, send me a PM if you want more info.

AdamBrouillard

In response to TXE36

I'd say your counter steering instincts were quite good and it looks like you almost saved it. Just takes a lot of practice to develop that balance and even world champions spin sometimes. Remember though, throttle doesn't transfer load, acceleration does. If you are over the limit, throttle will reduce rear grip, not increase it. Instead you want to go to neutral throttle to give the rear tires as much lateral traction as possible.

HelpMeHelpU

I know (next to) nothing and I am eager to hear what the pros and others think, but I wonder if that open glove box with the paper starting to fly about knocked your concentration. All it takes is a tiny thing to distract us. It seems to me the issues actually started well before the spin and it seemed to me related to the distraction. Exacerbating the distraction was the white 911 in front that seemed to get a little light, too.

Again, I know nothing, and am eager to hear thoughts of others.

DTMiller

I watched the video and when the glovebox came open my immediate thought was "well, that distraction caused it." Pattern interrupt, etc.

Mike, glad you came out ok.

Thundermoose

Looks to me like you turned in early to 14 and then had too much steering input at 15 coupled with throttle. Hold 13 a bit longer so that 14 and 15 is point and shoot. You should be almost to outside triangle at exit of 15 and opening wheel. Instead you were mid track.

TXE36

That is a very good point. I believe is was ProCoach who stated that adding throttle when spinning just makes you hit what you were going to hit even harder.

The glove box certainly didn't help. One of the unintended consequences of removing the center console as part of my data/gauge upgrade. Erik in the white 911 is a great guy and very good driver - I certainly didn't see anything that bothered me with him real time.

The line does look a little crappy (see the glovebox above) but I'm not satisfied it explains it. Bottom line is on average, I'm just too far behind the car.

This happened Sunday morning. It's a good thing you did Saturday only, otherwise you would have heard the 1/2 dozen or so F-bombs I dropped in the garage and edited out of the video.

Thanks for all the replies.

-Mike

Thundermoose

You should not have to countersteer out of 15. You're behind because you had oversteer which only has a few possible causes - (1) too much throttle for given steering input (2) sudden lift with too much input or (3) you hit a patch of something slick.

Look at your hand position at 32 second mark. Its nearly 45 degrees to the left. You don't have pedal trace but between foot cam and speed, it's clear that you're on the gas.

I know on late Saturday morning my tires were already greasy and I was struggling for grip on exits.

But I am just a student of this like you. Thanks for sharing the video.

Olemiss540

Mike,

I am no procoach, barely a decent driver in fact but in my e36, once you lose the tail neutral throttle and counter steer should correct into a drift that will quickly catch. Once you reapplied the throttle under steering input, I believe you upset an already upset situation. Transferring weight to the rear helps in a controlled overseer or when you lose the rear end of a 911 (apparently), but an e36 is very temperamental with pedal application under loss of traction conditions.

When something starts to happen in my e36, neutral pedals to maintain balance and try to fix with the wheel or atleast attempt to steer it to safety.

RichFL

I drive a slightly modified Cayman S PDK mostly at Sebring using sport mode. I've noticed that on some turns when I start accelerating out of the turn the car downshifts. Depending on the turn, that can upset the balance of the car.

When I was tracking manual transmission cars I followed the advice of going into the turn in the gear that I wanted when I exit the turn. Should I consider using using manual mode on the PDK and doing the same thing?

Thanks for your help.

Manifold

I exclusively use the paddles on track in my GT3. I've seen pros doing the same. It's good to know what gear you're in and control when the car shifts. It's also more fun, and provides a greater sense of connection with the car.

The scenario you describe with the car downshifting during corner exit isn't good, since you get a sudden change in torque while on the throttle. Much better IMO to get downshifting done during braking or corner entry.