911SLOW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aepBp...eature=related

mark kibort

again, we mock what we dont understand, dont we VR!

Scott, go re-read my post again. you didnt answer the question.
I worked many years for a company that designed, created, and used dyno systems. There is no fundamental difference of how a dyno calculates power, using torque or rate of change of kinetic energy. I think I read somewhere, a known dynomometer company's description, of how the software is written to calculate HP. Ill see if I can dig it up for you.

Hmm, now your point about a designer not wanting a flat HP curve. really. say you run in ALMS . say you have a 500hp limit. would you choose to have the Vet engine with a flat HP curve or the ferarri engine with a flat torque curve?
I never said it was a goal to design a flat hp curve, because, yes you would leave something on the table up top. but to the point of the discussion, for a given HP would you want a flat hp curve or a flat torque curve? Its a simple question.

remember acceleraton = power/(mass x velocity) this means if you can operate at near or at max power, for more of the time, you will get the best acceleation possible. where this is all going is infinitely variable gear boxes. no shifting, all you do is floor it, the engine runs to max HP and stays there for max acceleration. max engine torque is a non -factor. the new 7 speed gear boxes are pushing things in this direction.

by the way, if anyone has noticed, most sanctioning bodies use power as a way to regulate the equality in race fields. There is a reason for that.

Mark

Veloce Raptor

You're right, Mark. I mock you because I don't understand you, or your fantasy world that Scott described. I don't understand how you, likely a nice decent person, could advocate so many of the utterly unsafe, dangerous, and confusing opinions you do. But that's where we're gonna have to leave it.

*unsubscribed*

mark kibort

Scott and I were trying understand the flat torque curve vs flat hp curve relationship . fanatasy you say? really? ask anyone in racing if they want a flat HP curve or a flat torque curve for a given HP limit. I think the answer is obvious. This has nothing to do with design ideas for an engine.

EDIT: as far designer go, they are constantly trying to find ways to flatten out the HP curves. one of the most important changes were those done to the intakes, to use the Himhotz resonator principles to increase mid range torque and thus flatten out the HP curve. so, yes, designers do not want a flat torque curve if they can fight it. a broader hp curve will always be more desireable , as long as there is some space between gears that falls out of the optimum hp ranges.

As far as my techniques on the track, anyone riding with me would find it very clear as to what I was talking about with an early turn in (or early apex) for some turns. this started out as advice to a non -novice going to laguna. But, its a concept Ive used with some beginners as well. For some reason they have all been very safe. As far as my shocks, yes, they are old and probaby tired, as are many parts of a 25 year old car, BUT, they are not leaking, seals are good and there is so much friciton in my old bushings, without dampers, the car would be fairly safe on the track. Look, you are the one with pictures of yourself in races facing backward, ending up in sand traps, etc. I think you are somone I would look out for on the track! Oh yeah, my brakes were not bedded, or they failed, or abs locked up or or or. all excuses. you understand that there are a lot of potenial variables with a car and a driver. the ones that have problems, are the ones that havent narrowed them down and controled them.

mark kibort

HP and Torque empahsis remides me of a discussion between PLato and Socrates.

If the two were to discuss HP and Torque, this is how a part of the conversation might go: (i didnt write this by the way)

Plato: I read somewhere that to measure power, you measure torque and then you deduce power from torque. That supposedly demonstrates that power is just an abstraction of torque.

Socrates: Clearly, there are various ways to measure power independently of torque. Moreover, the notion, that power is less real than torque, has no meaning or interpretation that is capable of being confirmed experimentally. As far as the orthodoxy and methodology of empirical science is concerned, notions of that sort are meaningless.

quickxotica

I'm pretty certain both Plato and Socrates would choose self-immolation if their only alternative was to read this thread.

911SLOW

Conium..

mark kibort

Hey, why cant you guys just let scott and I talk it out? If you dont want to read it , unsubscribe.

He made a point, i countered, its his turn. Now Scott, (or VR) is it really fantasy as you say for some to want a flatter HP curve, or a desinger to boost HP in the lower ranges if they are not allowed to create more HP?
Do you want to have an engine wth a flat (or flatter) HP curve or a flat torque curve if you had a choice?

your last sentence below hits the nail on the head, but with the wrong outcome. you do want the rpm to be higher, to take advantage of gearing, to better utilize HP that you have available. This is why most all race cars never even see peak engine torque values, even a big stout viper V10. they all run in the falling side of the hp curve. I guess in essesnce , with a limit on HP, you want a falling torque curve!

Mark

2BWise

While not infinitely variable this technology already exists and has for decades. Its called a CVT.

mark kibort

Yes, we have brought this up before. after it goes mainstream racing, someday, then the talk of engine torque will not exist. Why? becuase the ONLY thing that will matter will be power. However, to the many points, the engine torque will be doing the "work", albeit either a little torque at a very high speed, or a lot of torque at a low speed to the same exact, inverse proportions.
never again will a race engine even come close to being used at its peak torque output.

2BWise

The CVT will likely never make it to main stream. It had been tried before in several cars. F1 banned it before it was even formally introduced. Today, Formula 500 still uses CVTs.

They sound awful too.

1972 Huron-Cosworth I believe


Almost made it to F1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto

mark kibort

with a flat hp curve, where post shift power is equal to pre shift HP, its not really nessesary, as there is absolultey no powerloss. cup cars approximate this, but still leave a little power on the table on the post shift side. Plus, their no lift shifting takes so little time, that there is not many Hp-seconds lost in the extra shifts.
I dont know if I would like the sound if F1 cars just running at max HP and staying there . I wonder how it downshifts to use compression braking for part of the decel process.

Pretty interesting. I think dragsters use a part of this concept, with the fact that they have wide slip percentages on the tries, and they grow enormously, with speed.

Matt Romanowski

Wrong once again. Dragsters use regular transmissions and slip the clutches a bunch. They also change the ignition and fuel curves to reduce power. Oh, and they don't slip the tires much.

mark kibort

I dont know. i thought it didnt look like shifted all that much and those tires were spinning at a high slip and certainly growing down the track!

I should have asked the question, rather than stated it that way. no need to jump all over it. What to you mean, "wrong once again"? I would like you to point out an error or two.

you dont agree that acceleration= power/(mass x velocity)? you dont agree that if you have the same hp at any speed, you produce the same rear wheel torque? Because that is all I have basically said over the past few pages.

Veloce Raptor

Yup. It's all about the clutch packs.