Has Club Racing Gotten Too Aggressive?
08-03-2010, 12:30 PM
#46
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At a certain point, this IS "racing" and, whether it be in the Club form or Pro, incidents will happen. Racing and aggression go hand in hand. I saw the start and I would have faulted the black car if there was an accident. Didn't hold his line and came over on the white car that clearly didn't move but got a better jump. Was the black car being overly aggressive? Not in my opinion. He simply didn't realize that he didn't have enough clearance to come over. I saw the same move happen at VIR with a 944 that ended up hitting the guard rail at pit entry.
If we're gonna have "racing," racing incidents will happen. I've never had a 13 but have had "incidents." It's all part of learning and honing your skill/craft. Unfortunately, some people's learning experiences are more severe than others. In my opinion, you can't police this stuff out of racing. If anything, the best thing you could probably do would be to make the license harder to get initially. I think PCA does as good a job out there as anyone on the license front but let's face it, all someone has to do is have two races under their belt in some sanctioning body and they can be on the grid next to you at the next PCA race...
08-03-2010, 12:47 PM
#47
08-03-2010, 12:53 PM
#48
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At a certain point, this IS "racing" and, whether it be in the Club form or Pro, incidents will happen. Racing and aggression go hand in hand. I saw the start and I would have faulted the black car if there was an accident. Didn't hold his line and came over on the white car that clearly didn't move but got a better jump. Was the black car being overly aggressive? Not in my opinion. He simply didn't realize that he didn't have enough clearance to come over. I saw the same move happen at VIR with a 944 that ended up hitting the guard rail at pit entry.
If we're gonna have "racing," racing incidents will happen. I've never had a 13 but have had "incidents." It's all part of learning and honing your skill/craft. Unfortunately, some people's learning experiences are more severe than others. In my opinion, you can't police this stuff out of racing. If anything, the best thing you could probably do would be to make the license harder to get initially. I think PCA does as good a job out there as anyone on the license front but let's face it, all someone has to do is have two races under their belt in some sanctioning body and they can be on the grid next to you at the next PCA race...
If we're gonna have "racing," racing incidents will happen. I've never had a 13 but have had "incidents." It's all part of learning and honing your skill/craft. Unfortunately, some people's learning experiences are more severe than others. In my opinion, you can't police this stuff out of racing. If anything, the best thing you could probably do would be to make the license harder to get initially. I think PCA does as good a job out there as anyone on the license front but let's face it, all someone has to do is have two races under their belt in some sanctioning body and they can be on the grid next to you at the next PCA race...
08-03-2010, 01:02 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
And that my friend is why there are so many accidents in club racing.
ATTITUDE. WTF! who among us would not love to be in a cup car, dragging down the straight to see if we could get a door ahead of a car in front of us. And who WOULDNT just back off and tuck-in, if they lost the drag and ended up a bumper behind? Well, I hope all the guys I run with would say, "ME !". This is a prime example of the main issue you are referring to: Beiing a club racer or being a racing moron and hazard! Its all attitude. There are guys that just flail around their cars like they could give a rats *** about anyone around them, including themselves. These guys should be booted to the curb and given an SCCA spec miata license to mellow them out! I could care less about the equipment guys run. GT3RSR, WCGTVET, or honda civic, they are all dangerous for one dominant reason and it isnt experience, car control or HP, its ATTITUDE.
How many DEs, Time trials, or race pre- meetings have we all sit in on??? 100s?? what is the theme? "Hey guys, there is no prize money, any contact and you go home, there are no trophies, we want all of you to bring your car home in the shape..... ". Why doesnt it stick? Well, in SCCA racing, I have been lucky to race with some pretty level headed individuals. We all know each other, we all race hard but all value our cars, most all have a lot of effort in their cars, so you dont see, nearly ever, any real bone head dive bomb moves. To the point about HP, I lost my car to the slowest guy on the track that just had NO skills and it had nothing to do with HP, experience, or anything other than skill. He could not control a car at half the field speed. Just pure car control issues. For 3 years, he raced, getting lapped sometimes 3-4 times a race, and no one ever had an issue. then, my luck, he loses control, shooting across the track like a blind jack-rabbit and takes me out and almost kills us both as I am passing at 100mph vs his 50. Point is, should we have better skills tests too?
Accidents happen in so many ways. Conditions, obstacles, mechanical, driver control, herd flow, driver decisions (i.e. attitude) , etc. The race committies have only so much they can do to control all of the above with exception of driver ability and attitude. I think ability, even after my bad experience with someone failing that test, is a minority of cause. So, if it really is attitude, how do we change club racing to be more safe from yahoos that think they are going to get a Rolex ride if they get in the top 3 of a given club race? One thing I have found in SCCA racing, and a little in POC racing back in the late 90s and early 2000s, was that the more socially you interacted with the goup, the more respect you seem to have for each other. Maybe putting a face to the driver next to you is better than just viewing the guy next to you as the evil #25 that I must pass at all cost.
I bet if there were more driver meetings, or socials, or if you were forced to set up in the paddocks by group, that might help. However, I know I know, it doesnt seem to help spec miata much who do a lot of that, but I think they all agree, that with 70 car fields, of all cars identicallly prepared , rubbing is racing for them. Ive driven in very well behaved 70 car fields as well, with a lot of cup cars, and havent seen much of an issue, but that was 6 years ago. I think times have changed.
You know, PRC (Porsche Racing Club) for a while and might still do this, didnt allow passing until after the first turn and no 3 wide corners. now, I still think that is silly, but they have a pretty good track record for accidents. However, personally, passing at the start is the best part of the race, so I dont think that is the answer either. Back to the video. We have to get to the point where folks are not in road rage mode and have a firm grip of reality to be able to keep their "type A", maniac, high testosterone attitudes in check.
any other ideas??
ATTITUDE. WTF! who among us would not love to be in a cup car, dragging down the straight to see if we could get a door ahead of a car in front of us. And who WOULDNT just back off and tuck-in, if they lost the drag and ended up a bumper behind? Well, I hope all the guys I run with would say, "ME !". This is a prime example of the main issue you are referring to: Beiing a club racer or being a racing moron and hazard! Its all attitude. There are guys that just flail around their cars like they could give a rats *** about anyone around them, including themselves. These guys should be booted to the curb and given an SCCA spec miata license to mellow them out! I could care less about the equipment guys run. GT3RSR, WCGTVET, or honda civic, they are all dangerous for one dominant reason and it isnt experience, car control or HP, its ATTITUDE.
How many DEs, Time trials, or race pre- meetings have we all sit in on??? 100s?? what is the theme? "Hey guys, there is no prize money, any contact and you go home, there are no trophies, we want all of you to bring your car home in the shape..... ". Why doesnt it stick? Well, in SCCA racing, I have been lucky to race with some pretty level headed individuals. We all know each other, we all race hard but all value our cars, most all have a lot of effort in their cars, so you dont see, nearly ever, any real bone head dive bomb moves. To the point about HP, I lost my car to the slowest guy on the track that just had NO skills and it had nothing to do with HP, experience, or anything other than skill. He could not control a car at half the field speed. Just pure car control issues. For 3 years, he raced, getting lapped sometimes 3-4 times a race, and no one ever had an issue. then, my luck, he loses control, shooting across the track like a blind jack-rabbit and takes me out and almost kills us both as I am passing at 100mph vs his 50. Point is, should we have better skills tests too?
Accidents happen in so many ways. Conditions, obstacles, mechanical, driver control, herd flow, driver decisions (i.e. attitude) , etc. The race committies have only so much they can do to control all of the above with exception of driver ability and attitude. I think ability, even after my bad experience with someone failing that test, is a minority of cause. So, if it really is attitude, how do we change club racing to be more safe from yahoos that think they are going to get a Rolex ride if they get in the top 3 of a given club race? One thing I have found in SCCA racing, and a little in POC racing back in the late 90s and early 2000s, was that the more socially you interacted with the goup, the more respect you seem to have for each other. Maybe putting a face to the driver next to you is better than just viewing the guy next to you as the evil #25 that I must pass at all cost.
I bet if there were more driver meetings, or socials, or if you were forced to set up in the paddocks by group, that might help. However, I know I know, it doesnt seem to help spec miata much who do a lot of that, but I think they all agree, that with 70 car fields, of all cars identicallly prepared , rubbing is racing for them. Ive driven in very well behaved 70 car fields as well, with a lot of cup cars, and havent seen much of an issue, but that was 6 years ago. I think times have changed.You know, PRC (Porsche Racing Club) for a while and might still do this, didnt allow passing until after the first turn and no 3 wide corners. now, I still think that is silly, but they have a pretty good track record for accidents. However, personally, passing at the start is the best part of the race, so I dont think that is the answer either. Back to the video. We have to get to the point where folks are not in road rage mode and have a firm grip of reality to be able to keep their "type A", maniac, high testosterone attitudes in check.
any other ideas??
Hmm this thread has taken a bit of a turn. How about comments on the start of the Club race last weekend at Mosport. Check out the first and second place cars at the start..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w_kxAnOSyE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w_kxAnOSyE
Last edited by mark kibort; 08-03-2010 at 03:55 PM.
08-03-2010, 01:08 PM
#50
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Guys-
Ok, who knows what the guy was thinking and I said in my post that I would have faulted him. However, from my POV consider this....Turn 1 at Mosport is a right hander. Why would the guy move left if all he was doing was cutting someone off? He had the inside line and more than enough speed/position to hold position through turn 1. I'm GUESSING (like we all are although mine is probably a little better guess than some because I've actually been to Mosport)that he probably wanted to move left to get best possible line into turn 1. If he did it to block then he IS a moron because he didn't need to... Maybe he truly was being an a$$hole...
I guess my issue is that this video was shown as an example of over aggression when none of us know what the guy was thinking or why he did it. An assumption was made that I took issue with.
Ok, who knows what the guy was thinking and I said in my post that I would have faulted him. However, from my POV consider this....Turn 1 at Mosport is a right hander. Why would the guy move left if all he was doing was cutting someone off? He had the inside line and more than enough speed/position to hold position through turn 1. I'm GUESSING (like we all are although mine is probably a little better guess than some because I've actually been to Mosport)that he probably wanted to move left to get best possible line into turn 1. If he did it to block then he IS a moron because he didn't need to... Maybe he truly was being an a$$hole...
I guess my issue is that this video was shown as an example of over aggression when none of us know what the guy was thinking or why he did it. An assumption was made that I took issue with.
08-03-2010, 01:16 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
Exactly. hey, in my opinion, if you are going to have contact, it better be doing all you can to avoid it. LIKE, racing toe to toe and going into a turn 2 wide, and clipping rear view mirrors or something. I've exchanged donuts once a few years ago, it was close racing, and I know how Ill avoid that kind of contact in the future. Ive also been punted in a turn by a dive bomb move. Both were just bad calculations, low percentage moves and moves that didnt have an "out". I always try and have an "out" whenever I'm passing. At what cost? Ill get it done, but it might take a lap or two to get it done, so what is the rush? On a start, like my last race, there was a highway down the middle, but If I had taken it too after the stack up in my lane, there would have been an accident. Instead, I watched, 3-4 cars I was faster than, pass me before the start flag. Well, turns out, i had to work the entire race to get them all back, which I did. Had that not happen, the race wouldnt have been that interesting. All "Racing" is good, and in club racing, its competitive, but we got to keep the attitudes in check and realize you can be competitive, agressive and safe all at the same time.
All "Racing" is good, and in club racing, its competitive, but we got to keep the attitudes in check and realize you can be competitive, agressive and safe all at the same time.
08-03-2010, 01:17 PM
#52
Race Car
-Do you think this has anything to do with not knowing your competition?
in Nasa or SCCA, (regional or divisional level), you see the same guys every month... a few new cars now and then, but most of the competition you know, and how aggressive they are & what to expect.
PCA seems like amateur racing on a national level...
-or do you know most of cars in class, throughtout the year?
in Nasa or SCCA, (regional or divisional level), you see the same guys every month... a few new cars now and then, but most of the competition you know, and how aggressive they are & what to expect.
PCA seems like amateur racing on a national level...
-or do you know most of cars in class, throughtout the year?
08-03-2010, 01:21 PM
#53
Drifting
-Do you think this has anything to do with not knowing your competition?
in Nasa or SCCA, (regional or divisional level), you see the same guys every month... a few new cars now and then, but most of the competition you know, and how aggressive they are & what to expect.
PCA seems like amateur racing on a national level...
-or do you know most of cars in class, throughtout the year?
in Nasa or SCCA, (regional or divisional level), you see the same guys every month... a few new cars now and then, but most of the competition you know, and how aggressive they are & what to expect.
PCA seems like amateur racing on a national level...
-or do you know most of cars in class, throughtout the year?
08-03-2010, 01:24 PM
#54
Still plays with cars.
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T1 at Mosport is a right hander so moving left is logical, unless you are overlapped with a car on your left. Was it a mistake, or intimidation. I don't know if the stewards saw that move and whether 13's resulted, there is no doubt there was contact.
I raised the question because I remember when Club Racing was a lot more friendly, drivers would avoid contact - period. As VR pointed out, the race was fun not money or potential pro rides. These days, the friendly part seems to have evaporated. It begs the question, is Club Racing still a logical venue for those who cannot easily afford to repair cars after every race?
FWIW I think Helmut Tester nailed it, with Cup cars relatively equal, it takes serious aggression to get past a decent driver in an equal car.
We know where that leads as anyone who has seen a "wreck me otter" race
I raised the question because I remember when Club Racing was a lot more friendly, drivers would avoid contact - period. As VR pointed out, the race was fun not money or potential pro rides. These days, the friendly part seems to have evaporated. It begs the question, is Club Racing still a logical venue for those who cannot easily afford to repair cars after every race?
FWIW I think Helmut Tester nailed it, with Cup cars relatively equal, it takes serious aggression to get past a decent driver in an equal car.
We know where that leads as anyone who has seen a "wreck me otter" race
08-03-2010, 02:01 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
I think you need to know who you are racing against and make decisions accordingly.
If I find myself behind someone that I know to be consistenly slower than me, I will bide my time and wait for a braking zone following a high speed straight or a relativeliy high speed corner.
If I find myself in front of someone consistently faster than me especially if not in my class I will try to let them by.
If I am racing someone who is about even with me (i.e. average lap times within 1/2 second) then I will be agressive at every opportunity.
If I find myself behind someone that I know to be consistenly slower than me, I will bide my time and wait for a braking zone following a high speed straight or a relativeliy high speed corner.
If I find myself in front of someone consistently faster than me especially if not in my class I will try to let them by.
If I am racing someone who is about even with me (i.e. average lap times within 1/2 second) then I will be agressive at every opportunity.
08-03-2010, 03:12 PM
#57
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It's easy for a decent club racer to go 97% in a cup car. Its hard for him to go 99% and impossible except for blind luck for him to do 99.5%. Occasionally we have delusions of grandeur and think just because John Doe can brake at the 2 marker then I can too.
I had a minor incident at VIR but it was not caused by me, or the 996RSR I was chasing... but rather the slower car that was distracted by being passed on the outside and inside at the same time. He turns into the RSR, who spins in front of me and I hit him. I also made a mistake at Road America last year and spun into some tires. 100% my fault. If I had spun in the same place with a slower car I probably would not have hit the wall.
Less attendence = fewer run groups = bigger speed differentials = accidents.
I had a minor incident at VIR but it was not caused by me, or the 996RSR I was chasing... but rather the slower car that was distracted by being passed on the outside and inside at the same time. He turns into the RSR, who spins in front of me and I hit him. I also made a mistake at Road America last year and spun into some tires. 100% my fault. If I had spun in the same place with a slower car I probably would not have hit the wall.
Less attendence = fewer run groups = bigger speed differentials = accidents.
08-03-2010, 03:30 PM
#59
Race Director
Look Mark Kibort makes some really good comments.
Contact is about attitude more than anything. You can make mistakes and have contact. It is racing afterall, but a good attitude means avoiding contact first racing for the win second. If a driver thinks about winning first and does not care who he wrecks in the process he is a problem.
Maybe there is change the attitude of some drivers. Or maybe they are not learning about the virtues of "always having a way out" just incase the other guy is a bone head.
Contact is about attitude more than anything. You can make mistakes and have contact. It is racing afterall, but a good attitude means avoiding contact first racing for the win second. If a driver thinks about winning first and does not care who he wrecks in the process he is a problem.
Maybe there is change the attitude of some drivers. Or maybe they are not learning about the virtues of "always having a way out" just incase the other guy is a bone head.
08-03-2010, 04:09 PM
#60
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