Bryan Watts

I've tried to make that point on this thread, but it hasn't seemed to work yet. The idea of choosing a track car based on the number of BMW or Porsche DE weekends nearby seems absolutely absurd to me when there are tons of groups, some marque specific, most not, offering track events.

A quick look at www.trackschedule.com shows 20+ groups running DE events, and that's only a small sample. At least at VIR, it's often the same guys instructing whether you run BMW CCA, PCA, NASA, TrackDaze, SVT Mustang Club, Corvette Club, Chin Motorsports, etc, etc.

amaist

I forgot about the Lotus. I wish they would make adult sized cars.

mooty

the door close on the top of the door you used to pull the door close is plastic.....


LOL, just giving you hell. i had two, great track cars. cheap to buy, cheap to maintain and scare a lot of porsches. those things can stick to the inside of just about any turn and under cut you. well maybe not your turbo. but they are good.

mooty

veloce and bryan w probably will kill me. but i had E36m3, lotus and some p cars. if he's staring out, i think lotus is a better car to start, assuming he wont be racing any time soon. here is my logic.

e36m3 has a lot of potential. my was really built up. but as a stock street car, it really isn't all that good. most of the bimmerphile are used to their E36m3 which i am sure is modded. a bone stock m3 is really a big boat and will lean all over the place on track. it's easy to find aftermkt parts and mod the m3, but that's a problem imo. at least 75% of the aftermkt stuff for bmw out there are just plain junk. how is a newbie going to figure out what's real and what's crap? of course, if he knows how to mod the car, then the m3 would be btter than lotus, especially if racing is involved. i doubt newbies can mod well.

a stock lotus is ready to go out of the box. just drive it. it's very neutral and will teach you driving dynamics. no electronics to mask your mistakes. getting pretty cheap to buy. the motor is bullet proof too. drive that for 2-3 years in DE. then see what to do next.

mooty

i dont know much about 944 race cars, but mark k and some other are saying they can build blah blah race car for $18k. if you can, i will buy everyone you build. i dont like ugly cars. i dont work on my own cars. many racer do not count labor cost. this is not how you advise a newbie with regard to pricing. also, many ppl think they can find used parts, or bargain parts. i dont like to wait. if i want shocks, i want it in 24 hours air shipped. that cost money. sure, i can wait for a year and buy some take off moton's for cheap. ah... that's not the right way to buy parts. waiting is a form of cost. you need to add that up to the build cost. how much is your one hour cost?

finally, some drivers like to have good seats that fit them not any seats that's on sale. some ppl have strange body porportions like me such that my legs are about 1/2 the length of my torso. the only seat that fits me and have the shoulder harness hole ABOVE my shoulder is recaro hans pro. that seat with a good slider which slides like butter (sorry sparco and recaro sliders are POS, they bind a lot. i dont have the patience to tolerate with that) cost me close to $3k. i prefer brand new schroth harness and a new steering wheel. a custom welded roll bar not bolt in death cage. so now, find me a 18k e36m3 or 928 stroker...

it's very easy to budge for a race car. if you are normal, take what your budget is, double it. if you are abnormal, take your budge and triple it. if you are insane like me, take the budget and multiply it by 4 or 5.

here is your REAL number.

FredC

I had the chance to drive an exige and an elise at what I consider to be my 9/10ths.

I advise a newbie against those cars primarily because they are simply too forgiving. These cars are hard to unhook and will shelter a newbie from valuable feedback.

they are at the opposite end of the foregiveness spectrum compared to a 996 gt3 imho. Now I am not saying that a gt3 is a better entry point either.

I have also seen 2 elise specimen catch on fire track side... That plastic body chars very quickly.

Finally, how reliable will these lotus cars be in the long run? I really don't know, especially for the cars that have been used on the track a lot.

Peter Carroll/Toronto

That same argument then applies to the M3s. They are so forgiving they make a novice look like a pro.

My first track car was a 930. Now there's some incentive to drive correctly - otherwise you die. The up side is it really is hard to learn so when you do you have it mastered. The down side is your progression is very slow. I think I set the record for slow progression - 150 track days in the black run group... It wasn't until I started driving the M3 my progression sped up.

If I had it to do again, I still think the Lotus would be a great way to go.

amaist

This is why I mentioned that if choosing a brand having someone nearby to give good advice is more essential. If someone goes with an E36 then having someone tell you which parts to get and already knowing what will and will not work is a necessity.

I agree that most of the stuff on the market is junk. If you start modifying a Japanese car then the proportion of garbage on the market goes to 99 percent. BMWs are actually a little better in that regard.

If there is nobody around to help the Lotus sounds like a good initial starting point if the driver is not too big.

Veloce Raptor

Nah, I respect your opinion. I have very little seat time in Loti, since I am 6'4" tall and can't fit in thhem with a helmet, so I have little or no basis to comment about them.






Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Gary R.

And i've seen two Elise's turn into colorful confetti after relatively minor contacts. Price out body parts... I'm sticking with my 944/early 911 recommendation but a well set up BMW would be good too. I think safety-wise I would stay away from the smaller cars but that's just me.

kurt M

Fixed that for ya. This MK/VR thing is leaking into the rest of the threads. Your insightful contributions are always welcome but please give the pissing match part a rest in the other threads guys.

mooty

amaist: correct. if you have guidance availabe, a e36m3 is formidable. but pls change the water pumper, coolant box and such, they WILL FAIL. add those $$$, cheap next to p car of course.

veloce: thanks for your respect. lotus isn't the best, especially if one is racing, body panels makes porsche panel look free. more later. and like i said before, if you know what you are doing, a e36m3 C mod or IP (or was it JP, it's been a while) are formidable toys. and cheap.

to those that find lotus easy to drive, well so is bmw. perhaps we should think why is 911 so hard and *** backward to drive? my logic is that one starts with lotus or m3 (neutral but not something like evo, which can do amazing things even with my pet dog driving, my students in evo are going so fast that i thought i was going to fly off the turn. guess what, the car drives us out of it, no drama), neutrality and forgiveness are not the same imo. an evo will push, it's hard to throttle steer, when in doubt, more gass will pull you through with the AWD computers. a lotus or m3 are neutal, you can throttle steer them, no electronic aids, you can slide them, if you lift too much, it will spin. lotus has very low tq, so you start to learn to carry corner speed without scarying your self. in my gt3, i always felt i am fast enough in the turn (the car was fast, aint me), with lotus, i either stop using the brakes or i will be very very slow. so i figured out how to carry that speed in turns and the car beling neutral, you aren't as scared. i swap b/n gt3 and lotus when i had both. i would do lotus for 6 months then goto GT3, each time i returned to gt3, i am faster. it's harder to experiment new technique in a faster and less neutral car.

i think one will progress faster if they start in bmw/lotus then move to 911 vs starting from 911 and learn by fear. just one person's opinion.

btw, my liking of lotus is for DE use only. most DE i goto are well ran and not many yahoos to cause accidents. in racing, a lotus isn't much cheaper than a GT3 cup car. why? a front clam shell is ONE PIECE and $11,000 USD. the rear clam, ALSO ONE PIECE is even more than that. one little rub, it's 10k +.

Gary R.

Just to set the record straight, the two Elise's I saw disintegrate were at Limerock and Watkins Glen... both were DE's and both were driver induced.

mooty

i am not doubting you.
did the driver push too hard and hit objects?
what i was referring to is that in DE, one shouldn't push hard enough to go off, hit things and such. while in racing, sometimes we take chances, bad chances which are more likely lead to contact.

Veloce Raptor

AMEN.





Professional Racing and Driving Coach