Track car....Porsche or BMW?.......how to choose?......
07-23-2009, 03:10 PM
#91
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
spec e30, they are old. it's one thing to build into race car (great series in nor cal) but for DE, you better know how to wrench the car as you have to quite a bit of work to get a 20 yr old car track safe and i am not talking mods here.
07-23-2009, 03:11 PM
#92
Rennlist Member
Because you asked; I'd tell your friend to get which ever car that turns his crank (emotionally) and that he can afford, (and afford to mod and yes, afford to crash). BMW and Porsche are in general, both great marks and make superb track cars albeit with markedly different handling and driving characteristics. He can't really go wrong with either.
I really like E46 M-cars but my heart belongs to 964/993s. I still look over my shoulder when I get out of my 964 and walk away. Will I do the same when the Spec 996 hits the track? Not sure- but it was a more rational (lower cost) and less emotional decision spec racing targeted car. I guess if I was being truly rational it would have been a Spec Miata
Not that racing isn't "fun" but DE's should REALLY be about fun and getting your driving chops together. IMO there is nothing more fun that taking a car that you love and exercising it around a nice track.
I really like E46 M-cars but my heart belongs to 964/993s. I still look over my shoulder when I get out of my 964 and walk away. Will I do the same when the Spec 996 hits the track? Not sure- but it was a more rational (lower cost) and less emotional decision spec racing targeted car. I guess if I was being truly rational it would have been a Spec Miata
Not that racing isn't "fun" but DE's should REALLY be about fun and getting your driving chops together. IMO there is nothing more fun that taking a car that you love and exercising it around a nice track.
07-23-2009, 03:15 PM
#93
Drifting
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Replace control arms, replace suspension bushings...go to the track. Not a big deal. I would want to see someone do that on most any car they purchase for the track with more than 30K miles, whether it's a 997 or a 1991 E30 325is. I think some of you Porsche guys are a bit spoiled...an older E30 makes one hell of a track car with very little investment and not much work. They can be had CHEAP...it the motor blows, you can buy a new one and have it installed for less than a set of "sporty" coilovers for a newer Porsche or BMW. Perfect starter track car that can also be raced in a very competitive class as the driver progresses.
07-23-2009, 03:19 PM
#94
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Replace control arms, replace suspension bushings...go to the track. Not a big deal. I would want to see someone do that on most any car they purchase for the track with more than 30K miles, whether it's a 997 or a 1991 E30 325is. I think some of you Porsche guys are a bit spoiled...an older E30 makes one hell of a track car with very little investment and not much work.
but many of the e30 i saw had rust around battery pan area, leaky coolant tanks and i would definitely chk/replace wheel bearings.
07-23-2009, 04:15 PM
#95
Mr. Excitement
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Replace control arms, replace suspension bushings...go to the track. Not a big deal. I would want to see someone do that on most any car they purchase for the track with more than 30K miles, whether it's a 997 or a 1991 E30 325is. I think some of you Porsche guys are a bit spoiled...an older E30 makes one hell of a track car with very little investment and not much work. They can be had CHEAP...it the motor blows, you can buy a new one and have it installed for less than a set of "sporty" coilovers for a newer Porsche or BMW. Perfect starter track car that can also be raced in a very competitive class as the driver progresses.
Rubber. If it has rubber in on it you need to replace it. bushings brake lines just the same as 80s- 90s Porsches. about the same as taking a 944 from DD to good DE car except for the #2 bearing issue. Shocks/struts, gunked up fuel systems, brakes, rust all seem to be about the same effort and amount with regards to refreshing brand to brand. Parts seem to cost a bit less on the BMWs and the used parts stream is much better for the 325s for sure.
From my limited track and street experence they drive well when freshed up and more so with a bit of $ thrown at the susp.
i think the primary key to a fun DE car is all things working and in in good condition. Fast car and cooked brake seals = crappy weekend. Once you advance some dialing in the car or moving to a more preped car might be the thing but by then you will have a better idea of whay YOU like and want. Venue plays in too. no one to play with is no fun. Who has the most events you can and want to go to?
Fred C has a very good point. You want to learn good car control and race craft go with the cart.
07-24-2009, 01:21 AM
#97
3rd Gear
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So . . . I'm the guy considering what to do.
There is NO doubt I have the bug to do something, and I'm wrestling with what to do. My head is spinning after the number of suggestions. Like DMD said, I did Skip Barber 3 Day Racing years ago (college graduation gift), but had the bug since I was a kid (grew up riding motocross, on a motorcycle at age 4-5). I didn't realize how much I loved this sport until I took my 330i to a DE at NHMS in July.
I think for now I want to stick to DEs, but I have to admit that racing has its appeal.
Having read the whole thread, here are the options I'm thinking of (from cheap to expensive):
1. Take my 2003 330i with sport package (not that that matters) and improve brakes, suspension, track tires, etc. but keep it as my stealth daily driver (avoid the cost of another car). Is this even possible? If so, what improvements do I REALLY need to make right away to make it more track capable but keep it relatively stock. This would allow me to do 2-4 DEs per year and see how hooked I am.
2. Buy a dedicated track car, but at a reasonable price. In this case it seems like I can afford a mid to late '90's e36 M3 or a mid to late '80's 911. I love the idea of a 911 with rwd (always have), but have only driven one once (and loved it). I just can't help but wonder if the cost of maintaining / etc. is just going to get out of control for a Porsche, but is it really worse for a mid-late 80s Porsche than a mid to late 90s M3? If I buy someone else's track ready 911 / M3, how can I possibly know whether or not I'm getting ripped off?
3. Stretch a little and buy a car I can "grow into" that is race-ready. This is clearly a big step. One I can afford to do, but not one my wife would be happy with (and yes . . . I'm a guy for which that matters).
Sorry guys, but you won't see me in a Miata. I've driven one and have to admit it's fun. The emotional connection just isn't there (and never will be). I still love getting in to my 330i.
It seems like a key decision I need to make is whether I'm going to be a DE-only guy or one who thinks that's what he is and then ends up getting hooked and wanting to race wheel to wheel 3 years later.
We'll see what my DMD friend has to say tomorrow . . .
There is NO doubt I have the bug to do something, and I'm wrestling with what to do. My head is spinning after the number of suggestions. Like DMD said, I did Skip Barber 3 Day Racing years ago (college graduation gift), but had the bug since I was a kid (grew up riding motocross, on a motorcycle at age 4-5). I didn't realize how much I loved this sport until I took my 330i to a DE at NHMS in July.
I think for now I want to stick to DEs, but I have to admit that racing has its appeal.
Having read the whole thread, here are the options I'm thinking of (from cheap to expensive):
1. Take my 2003 330i with sport package (not that that matters) and improve brakes, suspension, track tires, etc. but keep it as my stealth daily driver (avoid the cost of another car). Is this even possible? If so, what improvements do I REALLY need to make right away to make it more track capable but keep it relatively stock. This would allow me to do 2-4 DEs per year and see how hooked I am.
2. Buy a dedicated track car, but at a reasonable price. In this case it seems like I can afford a mid to late '90's e36 M3 or a mid to late '80's 911. I love the idea of a 911 with rwd (always have), but have only driven one once (and loved it). I just can't help but wonder if the cost of maintaining / etc. is just going to get out of control for a Porsche, but is it really worse for a mid-late 80s Porsche than a mid to late 90s M3? If I buy someone else's track ready 911 / M3, how can I possibly know whether or not I'm getting ripped off?
3. Stretch a little and buy a car I can "grow into" that is race-ready. This is clearly a big step. One I can afford to do, but not one my wife would be happy with (and yes . . . I'm a guy for which that matters).
Sorry guys, but you won't see me in a Miata. I've driven one and have to admit it's fun. The emotional connection just isn't there (and never will be). I still love getting in to my 330i.
It seems like a key decision I need to make is whether I'm going to be a DE-only guy or one who thinks that's what he is and then ends up getting hooked and wanting to race wheel to wheel 3 years later.
We'll see what my DMD friend has to say tomorrow . . .
07-24-2009, 01:32 AM
#98
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
didn't know you have 330i.
if this is your first year, then just take the 330i as is and do a few events. then improve the pads, brak fluid and go have more fun. then if you are still into it, put some R888, NT-01 tires on and go do more DE's. after a year or two, you will know if you really want to do this, then you can buy something more dedicate for DE, or a race car, or this or that. you will have more idea as to not just what cars you want but what organization you want to run with, that fits ur schedule and if you want to race or not. those data will help narrow down your selection of the track car.
if this is your first year, then just take the 330i as is and do a few events. then improve the pads, brak fluid and go have more fun. then if you are still into it, put some R888, NT-01 tires on and go do more DE's. after a year or two, you will know if you really want to do this, then you can buy something more dedicate for DE, or a race car, or this or that. you will have more idea as to not just what cars you want but what organization you want to run with, that fits ur schedule and if you want to race or not. those data will help narrow down your selection of the track car.
07-24-2009, 08:42 AM
#99
Moderator
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Same thoughts as Mooty - as you already have a 330i Sport...
First year: Have the brakes flushed before the event, and go and enjoy. You might want to have the car aligned by a good shop.
Second Year: Change brake fluid and swap the brake pads for something more aggressive. If your calipers are anything like the ones in my M3, it's a very easy thing to do yourself. Change to track pads the day before the event, change back when you get home.
Third Year: You'll be ready to make the harder decision of whether to continue to run the 330 with further mods or whether you want a more DE dedicated car. Me, I've always liked having that "stealth" car that by day is a street car and by night is a DE machine. With my M3 I'd swap pads before an event, pack my OZs with PSCups into the back seat (tire totes), and be ready for anything. Pouring rain and I'd run the streets, dry and I'd run the Cups.
You are just starting down this path and you don't need anything more than a capable street car. Every BMWCCA chapter I've run with mandates that you cannot run R-comps until you are in the intermediate and advanced run groups. Every chapter also frowns upon new students showing up with "prepared" cars and one of the last ones I went to before switching to Porsche proved them out. A novice student had about $20k of suspension and other mods done to his car. By mid day it was hauled out on a flat-bed, totaled.
First year: Have the brakes flushed before the event, and go and enjoy. You might want to have the car aligned by a good shop.
Second Year: Change brake fluid and swap the brake pads for something more aggressive. If your calipers are anything like the ones in my M3, it's a very easy thing to do yourself. Change to track pads the day before the event, change back when you get home.
Third Year: You'll be ready to make the harder decision of whether to continue to run the 330 with further mods or whether you want a more DE dedicated car. Me, I've always liked having that "stealth" car that by day is a street car and by night is a DE machine. With my M3 I'd swap pads before an event, pack my OZs with PSCups into the back seat (tire totes), and be ready for anything. Pouring rain and I'd run the streets, dry and I'd run the Cups.
You are just starting down this path and you don't need anything more than a capable street car. Every BMWCCA chapter I've run with mandates that you cannot run R-comps until you are in the intermediate and advanced run groups. Every chapter also frowns upon new students showing up with "prepared" cars and one of the last ones I went to before switching to Porsche proved them out. A novice student had about $20k of suspension and other mods done to his car. By mid day it was hauled out on a flat-bed, totaled.
07-24-2009, 08:43 AM
#100
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
+1
Keep your 330 stock and upgrade pads and tires when you've done enough DE's to warrant it.
Then, if the bug is still there, buy a car for the track and put the 330 back to stock.
Don't go too far with the 330 as far as mods. Don't do suspension or anything pricey. Converting a street car is far more expensive than buying one someone already built. Again, buy one someone already converted and save yourself thousands of dollars. You'll still have some money to spend on it no matter what but far less then gutting your 330.
As far as potentially getting ripped off, that's what Rennlist is for. Keep an eye on classifieds here and ask for whatever help you need. You can probably find someone here who either knows the car you are looking at, can do a PPI for you or can give a thumbs up/down on a seller or a shop.
Rennlist is a fantastic resource and will give you more info and confidence to purchase.
I don't spend a lot of time at the bimmerworld forums but if you decide to go with a BMW I would suggest the exact same route.
Enthusiasts are your friends no matter where the engine is
Keep your 330 stock and upgrade pads and tires when you've done enough DE's to warrant it.
Then, if the bug is still there, buy a car for the track and put the 330 back to stock.
Don't go too far with the 330 as far as mods. Don't do suspension or anything pricey. Converting a street car is far more expensive than buying one someone already built. Again, buy one someone already converted and save yourself thousands of dollars. You'll still have some money to spend on it no matter what but far less then gutting your 330.
As far as potentially getting ripped off, that's what Rennlist is for. Keep an eye on classifieds here and ask for whatever help you need. You can probably find someone here who either knows the car you are looking at, can do a PPI for you or can give a thumbs up/down on a seller or a shop.
Rennlist is a fantastic resource and will give you more info and confidence to purchase.
I don't spend a lot of time at the bimmerworld forums but if you decide to go with a BMW I would suggest the exact same route.
Enthusiasts are your friends no matter where the engine is
07-24-2009, 09:23 AM
#101
Team Owner
07-24-2009, 10:22 AM
#102
One more vote for only a fluid and pad upgrade to your daily driver. No need for R-compounds until the street tires are a limiting factor, which will probably be a few years. I stopped switching out to street pads many years ago; I just run my PFC01/06s all the time now. They stop fine in the (Florida) cold and the slight squealing reminds me that the car misses the track.
07-24-2009, 10:42 AM
#103
So . . . I'm the guy considering what to do.
There is NO doubt I have the bug to do something, and I'm wrestling with what to do. My head is spinning after the number of suggestions. Like DMD said, I did Skip Barber 3 Day Racing years ago (college graduation gift), but had the bug since I was a kid (grew up riding motocross, on a motorcycle at age 4-5). I didn't realize how much I loved this sport until I took my 330i to a DE at NHMS in July.
I think for now I want to stick to DEs, but I have to admit that racing has its appeal.
Having read the whole thread, here are the options I'm thinking of (from cheap to expensive):
1. Take my 2003 330i with sport package (not that that matters) and improve brakes, suspension, track tires, etc. but keep it as my stealth daily driver (avoid the cost of another car). Is this even possible? If so, what improvements do I REALLY need to make right away to make it more track capable but keep it relatively stock. This would allow me to do 2-4 DEs per year and see how hooked I am.
2. Buy a dedicated track car, but at a reasonable price. In this case it seems like I can afford a mid to late '90's e36 M3 or a mid to late '80's 911. I love the idea of a 911 with rwd (always have), but have only driven one once (and loved it). I just can't help but wonder if the cost of maintaining / etc. is just going to get out of control for a Porsche, but is it really worse for a mid-late 80s Porsche than a mid to late 90s M3? If I buy someone else's track ready 911 / M3, how can I possibly know whether or not I'm getting ripped off?
3. Stretch a little and buy a car I can "grow into" that is race-ready. This is clearly a big step. One I can afford to do, but not one my wife would be happy with (and yes . . . I'm a guy for which that matters).
Sorry guys, but you won't see me in a Miata. I've driven one and have to admit it's fun. The emotional connection just isn't there (and never will be). I still love getting in to my 330i.
It seems like a key decision I need to make is whether I'm going to be a DE-only guy or one who thinks that's what he is and then ends up getting hooked and wanting to race wheel to wheel 3 years later.
We'll see what my DMD friend has to say tomorrow . . .
There is NO doubt I have the bug to do something, and I'm wrestling with what to do. My head is spinning after the number of suggestions. Like DMD said, I did Skip Barber 3 Day Racing years ago (college graduation gift), but had the bug since I was a kid (grew up riding motocross, on a motorcycle at age 4-5). I didn't realize how much I loved this sport until I took my 330i to a DE at NHMS in July.
I think for now I want to stick to DEs, but I have to admit that racing has its appeal.
Having read the whole thread, here are the options I'm thinking of (from cheap to expensive):
1. Take my 2003 330i with sport package (not that that matters) and improve brakes, suspension, track tires, etc. but keep it as my stealth daily driver (avoid the cost of another car). Is this even possible? If so, what improvements do I REALLY need to make right away to make it more track capable but keep it relatively stock. This would allow me to do 2-4 DEs per year and see how hooked I am.
2. Buy a dedicated track car, but at a reasonable price. In this case it seems like I can afford a mid to late '90's e36 M3 or a mid to late '80's 911. I love the idea of a 911 with rwd (always have), but have only driven one once (and loved it). I just can't help but wonder if the cost of maintaining / etc. is just going to get out of control for a Porsche, but is it really worse for a mid-late 80s Porsche than a mid to late 90s M3? If I buy someone else's track ready 911 / M3, how can I possibly know whether or not I'm getting ripped off?
3. Stretch a little and buy a car I can "grow into" that is race-ready. This is clearly a big step. One I can afford to do, but not one my wife would be happy with (and yes . . . I'm a guy for which that matters).
Sorry guys, but you won't see me in a Miata. I've driven one and have to admit it's fun. The emotional connection just isn't there (and never will be). I still love getting in to my 330i.
It seems like a key decision I need to make is whether I'm going to be a DE-only guy or one who thinks that's what he is and then ends up getting hooked and wanting to race wheel to wheel 3 years later.
We'll see what my DMD friend has to say tomorrow . . .
I have a feeling you'll know pretty much straight away if you want to pursue this addiction further....at my first DE my instructor took me out in his E30M3 @ Mid-Ohio and after he drifted that car through the chicane again and again I told him "I wanna be able to drive like YOU!" After the event I recall getting home, plopping down on the couch and simply staring into space thinking about what had transpired that weekend.
That was in 1996, and I'm still at it.....I drive a bone-stock (save front pads and fluid) non-S Mini Cooper on street tires....it's not everyone's cup of tea but I just love the thing.
As said previously, do a DE or two in your 330; it's a very capable car right out of the box. When you decide you want to keep going, find a car that lights you up--getting lots of instructor rides in different cars can help you decide. Or perhaps it'll be your 330....whatever, then go for it!
07-24-2009, 11:28 AM
#104
Three Wheelin'
330i is a great car. If it's the Performance Package (not sure if that's what you meant by "sport"), I'd say you're starting with one of the best dual purpose cars that I can think of. Pop the baby seat out, throw on a set of track pads, and rip it up.
When you stop getting passed by lower hp cars, start running down higher hp cars, and your instructor starts says "You need to get some safety equipment in this thing," you should start looking for a dedicated car.
Welcome to the addiction . . .
-Jon
When you stop getting passed by lower hp cars, start running down higher hp cars, and your instructor starts says "You need to get some safety equipment in this thing," you should start looking for a dedicated car.
Welcome to the addiction . . .
-Jon
07-24-2009, 12:37 PM
#105
Rennlist Member
I agree with the consensus on this page regarding the 330. Track it for a couple more events. Then I would vote for your option 2- get a DE car. That has been my path, however, everyone progresses differently. That brings me to my point.
I don't believe it necessarily takes a year to move up to more aggressive pads. Some people learn and improve faster than others. A brake fluid upgrade makes logical sense if you are going to the track. Pay attention to your progression as your skill sets improve. Make sure to gain an understanding as to why the car does what it does at speed on the track. IMHO, drivers who learn with stock setups first become better drivers that those that get faster by upgrading parts.
+1- Welcome to the addiction! The most important thing is to have fun
I don't believe it necessarily takes a year to move up to more aggressive pads. Some people learn and improve faster than others. A brake fluid upgrade makes logical sense if you are going to the track. Pay attention to your progression as your skill sets improve. Make sure to gain an understanding as to why the car does what it does at speed on the track. IMHO, drivers who learn with stock setups first become better drivers that those that get faster by upgrading parts.
+1- Welcome to the addiction! The most important thing is to have fun