mooty

^ hey, the pissing match is why we come to the racing board, LMAO.
keep up the good work!

Zinhead

The OP was looking for a DE car, not a race car. For racing, the Lotus doesn't work well because of the high cost of replacing body panels, but that is not relevant to the OP's question or his friends needs right now.

Jon Moeller

I call bull****. For a beginner the e36 M3 in close to stock form is a great car. I was looking to make mine a compromise car, and it was definitely fun for me on the track with the following extensive mods: Bilsteins, Turner front bar, Vorshlag camber plates, and Koseis with good street rubber. With that setup, I ran a 1:07 on my first day out at LRP in a slower run group (train city). My instructor ran a 1:05.9.

For someone looking to learn the ropes, that's plenty of car for a couple years worth of driving (20 or so events). If anything, the money is better spent on safety equipment.

Anyone can get into a pissing contest with how much they spend on a car, but for someone looking to learn to drive, not learn how to modify a car, you don't need much.

-Jon

Gary R.

onefastviking

Little Gay Check book ----------- F1 7UP Model 1:18 scale

FredC

Paolo, tell your friend to buy a membership at a karting track and a 2-stroke kart instead. He will learn more than with a Lotus for a lot less money.

And no, you don't progress faster with the most forgiving car... you may think you are, but you are not...

mooty

that's your opinion.
and i have mine.
DO NOT call my opinion BS.
one can argue e36m3 is good for beginner, well then so is S2000, so is 944, so is boxster and we can go on.
a e36m3 is 10 years old, they NEED some deferred maintenance. any m3 with orig. shock needs shocks. 1/2 of them needs rear subframe reinforced. most of them need water pump and coolant reservoir done. these are not mods, but maintenance items. add this to the base cost.
the clean lotus elise can be had for $20,000 or so less than 4 years old. you need nothing.

BostonDMD

Well guys...... thanks for all your inputs......

I will be meeting my friend for coffee tomorrow morning....

he has told me he has been following this thread from the start......

I hope his head is not spinning........

Thanks again.....

Jon Moeller

My argument has to do with the fact that you stated that the car needed extensive modifications to be suitable DE car for a beginner. It doesn't. A beginner does not need a car with Motons, and horsepower upgrades. All the cars that you mentioned are perfect for a beginner in practically stock form.

I just hate to see someone promoting the concept that in order to get out on track, someone needs a full-bore race car, when in reality, very few beginners are capable of advancing quickly in a car that's fully prepared.

-Jon

mooty

ok, jon, now i understand your point and how my orig post was confusing.
let me try again.
i am saying that e36m3 or any e36 for that matter and all the other cars i mention in my last post are good cars for track newbie. you dont need mods. in fact, other than my race cars, i dont mod my cars much other than safety items. i hate mods in general b/c they tend to break down.

what i was saying is that M3 has a lot of potential to become something incredible, a good C Mod or was it D mod M3 can eat up GT3's. but that potential and the HUGE aftermkt parts for that car tends to entice most newbies to mod, and most newbies invariably pick the wrong things to put on the car, which leads to problems. i am not saying you have to mod in order to DE, i am just saying there are many parts out there to entice you, and trust me, a newbie will be enticed. and once poorly modded, the car will become POS. at least i see a lot of poorly done e36m3 DE cars here in nor cal.

now that we understand i am not promoting newbies to mod to wazoo, let's go back to stock cars, which i think are great for beginners. a nice E36m3 after you do some decent deferred the cost is $20k give or take a few. yes, i know you can get them cheaper, but i mean a nice one.

you can get a stock lotus also for 20-25k so is s2000.
the s2000 can be snappy and not so confidence inspiring so i didn't initially recommend for beginners.

but the lotus in stock form is really good and even a seasoned driver may not need to mod it. and for DE, a stock lotus will have less lean, and less maintenance issue than a stock e36m3 (simply b/c it's a newer car)

note: i ruled out racing in this case. b/c if you plan to race, then i say get the m3, drive it stock, get a good shop, mod it in a few year to the class you want to be in. great path. if just DE, get lotus and have fun with it no mods needed ever. 3 years out, you are bored, selling a stock lotus that you bought for 20k will not lose you much money. selling a tracked, semi modded (by then) m3 you will have no "regular" buyers. only ppl like us will buy such a car. and guess what, you and i will want to pay next to nothing for that m3 b/c you know his buying pool is tiny.

i have bought and sold many cars that i tracked. after u get reamed a few times selling "tracked" cars, you will see my point.

now if this "beginner" can provide more info as to what he plans for the car, then i am sure all of our recommendation can be tweeked further.

cheers,

Jon Moeller

Meant no harm, and agree with what you've said. I'm by no means bound to a single marque, and don't think BMW is the one and only. Hell, if Honda built the S2k in a coupe, I'd own it. I drove one at SOW, and felt it was a beautifully balanced car, and didn't note the snappiness that you and others have described. Granted, it wasn't my car, so I wasn't going all out, but I definitely explored the limits in sections.

I do think the e36 is a great car, but has some definite short comings. I'm hoping the 996 is the better compromise for me.

I'm going with a Miata for my vote for the original post.
-Jon

mooty

there we go, i actually forgot about gen 1 miata either 1.6 or 1.8, dirty cheap. put a set of $600-800 bilstein on it, go have a ball. i did.

Streak

From what I've seen (mostly the rear bumper ) the BMW is a potent track car. It has years of track development like a Porsche and I would very seriously consider a mid/early 90's 325 or M3.

There is a recent article in GRM comparing the e30, e36 and e46.

mooty

only tail happy if you lower it too much (bump steer issues) and only if you dont have much track experience. and usually on the gen 1 2.0L cars. they tamed the 2.2L

some dont like the non dry sump engine. a friend of mine has a 100k miles 3.4L tracked for 5 years, still going and sometime runs slicks, never an issue. i had one 3.6L, i took rear seat out to put in a roll bar, harness. i did upgrade the brake fluid to motul 600 and pads to pagid RS29 yellows, then some RA1,abused it for 2 years 7000 track miles, zero issues. i also drove it to work so it was a compromise dual purpose car like you are looking for.

Potomac-Greg

The e30s were so rare that the survivors are probably too dear to be flogged on track. I wonder what one of THOSE fenders would cost. I know 944 Cup cars are always on the market. What about Spec E30s?


Let me toss out an option that seems crazy now, but will seem less so in a couple of years. This coupe is available NEW for about $25,000 (so slightly used prices will be in the high teens). It has a 2.0 liter, turbocharged engine (tune-able to 250-300HP), and it's rear wheel drive. A track package is available with LSD and fat brakes. It's porky, but could probably get stripped down to 3,000 lbs. and remain street legal. It just needs a couple of years for the tuners to catch up, and for used prices to come down. ....


.....Hyundai Genesis Coupe. Yup. I just mentioned a Korean car on a Porsche site. I have no reputation to protect. ;-)