Lets Play 'What Makes the Ideal Track Car'
#166
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Originally Posted by BostonDMD
I must have gone by you guys pretty fast then......
Rick, thanks for everything......![bigbye](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/xyxwave.gif)
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Rick, thanks for everything......
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#168
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Originally Posted by pyruvate
Alright you got me then...Ferrari.
You seem like a nice guy and I'm sure you will do well. Good luck this year learning and finding speed.
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You seem like a nice guy and I'm sure you will do well. Good luck this year learning and finding speed.
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Originally Posted by Bull
Hey Dr. Pain, are we going to see ANY video THIS year???????
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#170
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Originally Posted by Greg Smith
Hey, what's a/the "redline"? ![Confused](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif)
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#171
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Originally Posted by 1957 356
I'm curious about this as well. Seems like this topic comes back again every so often.
Larry, was it that the tires were masking a technique issue or the technique needed to change for the tires? The reason I ask is that I ran street tires (Yoko ES100's) for the first half of last year and I switched to RA1's because I was really sliding going into just about every turn and they were screaming. I made some changes to my driving style based on feedback from instructors but when I changed to the RA1's, I was able to make some different adjustments that the tires allowed. Just curious which is the cart and which is the horse.
Larry, was it that the tires were masking a technique issue or the technique needed to change for the tires? The reason I ask is that I ran street tires (Yoko ES100's) for the first half of last year and I switched to RA1's because I was really sliding going into just about every turn and they were screaming. I made some changes to my driving style based on feedback from instructors but when I changed to the RA1's, I was able to make some different adjustments that the tires allowed. Just curious which is the cart and which is the horse.
This topic keeps coming back because there are too many drivers out there who either do not understand, or do not believe this: Sticky tires will mask all sorts of evils, from driving flaws to suspension inadequacies because of the extreme grip that they produce. Here is a really simple way to explain the difference between a street tire and an R tire. Both tires, by definition, will produce a grip total of 10 (10/10ths, get it?). Naturally, the limit of the street tire is lower, because it has less grip. However, in approching that limit, the street tire will build gradually and sneak up to it, whereas an R tire will be more abrupt, and a slick even more so.
As you lean on a street tire, and sideloads increase, you reach the limit like this 5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7, 7.5, 8, 8.5, 8.75, 9 ,9.25, 9.4, 9.6, 9.7, 9.8, 9.9, 10 and then you are sliding. When you are sliding, the grip still remains high. With an R tire the limit builds like this 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7 ,8 ,9, 9.5, 10 (damn, I wish I was on my PC & could graph this). When you are sliding, you lose grip just as fast. You can see how the tire reaches the limit much faster, and so requires much greater driver precision. Many lesser experienced drivers who could safely explore the 8-9/10s regions of their street tires will trundle around on Rs at 5-7/10ths, until they go just a little too quickly and spin. Confident that they have "found the limit" they then back it down into their 5-7/10ths comfort zone and are slow. It is having the skill to control that "little bit" that allows the top drivers to exploit the performance of these sticker but harder to drive tires.
They will also allow you to drive a line that is fundmentally flawed, like Mike found out, but still go fairly quickly because of all of the grip. Mike had no problems staying on the edge of the tire, but it masked his incorrect line. When he went back street tires, he literally plowed out of the turns due to the reduced grip. It became obvious that he had to take a later apex, get on the power, unwind the wheel and keep the front tires at their limit, but not over it.
I hope that my examples have made my thoughts on this clearer.
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#172
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman
To answer your question, it was the tires masking a technique issue.
This topic keeps coming back because there are too many drivers out there who either do not understand, or do not believe this: Sticky tires will mask all sorts of evils, from driving flaws to suspension inadequacies because of the extreme grip that they produce. Here is a really simple way to explain the difference between a street tire and an R tire. Both tires, by definition, will produce a grip total of 10 (10/10ths, get it?). Naturally, the limit of the street tire is lower, because it has less grip. However, in approching that limit, the street tire will build gradually and sneak up to it, whereas an R tire will be more abrupt, and a slick even more so.
As you lean on a street tire, and sideloads increase, you reach the limit like this 5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7, 7.5, 8, 8.5, 8.75, 9 ,9.25, 9.4, 9.6, 9.7, 9.8, 9.9, 10 and then you are sliding. When you are sliding, the grip still remains high. With an R tire the limit builds like this 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7 ,8 ,9, 9.5, 10 (damn, I wish I was on my PC & could graph this). When you are sliding, you lose grip just as fast. You can see how the tire reaches the limit much faster, and so requires much greater driver precision. Many lesser experienced drivers who could safely explore the 8-9/10s regions of their street tires will trundle around on Rs at 5-7/10ths, until the go just a little too quickly and spin. Confident that they have "found the limit" they then back it down into their 5-7/10ths comfort zone and are slow. It is having the skill to control that "little bit" that allows the top drivers to exploit the performance of these sticker but harder to drive tires.
They will also allow you to drive a line that is fundmentally flawed, like Mike found out, but still go fairly quickly because of all of the grip. Mike had no problems staying on the edge of the tire, but it masked his incorrect line. When he went back street tires, he literally plowed out of the turns due to the reduced grip. It became obvious that he had to take a later apex, get on the power, unwind the wheel and keep the front tires at their limit, but not over it.
I hope that my examples have made my thoughts on this clearer.
This topic keeps coming back because there are too many drivers out there who either do not understand, or do not believe this: Sticky tires will mask all sorts of evils, from driving flaws to suspension inadequacies because of the extreme grip that they produce. Here is a really simple way to explain the difference between a street tire and an R tire. Both tires, by definition, will produce a grip total of 10 (10/10ths, get it?). Naturally, the limit of the street tire is lower, because it has less grip. However, in approching that limit, the street tire will build gradually and sneak up to it, whereas an R tire will be more abrupt, and a slick even more so.
As you lean on a street tire, and sideloads increase, you reach the limit like this 5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7, 7.5, 8, 8.5, 8.75, 9 ,9.25, 9.4, 9.6, 9.7, 9.8, 9.9, 10 and then you are sliding. When you are sliding, the grip still remains high. With an R tire the limit builds like this 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7 ,8 ,9, 9.5, 10 (damn, I wish I was on my PC & could graph this). When you are sliding, you lose grip just as fast. You can see how the tire reaches the limit much faster, and so requires much greater driver precision. Many lesser experienced drivers who could safely explore the 8-9/10s regions of their street tires will trundle around on Rs at 5-7/10ths, until the go just a little too quickly and spin. Confident that they have "found the limit" they then back it down into their 5-7/10ths comfort zone and are slow. It is having the skill to control that "little bit" that allows the top drivers to exploit the performance of these sticker but harder to drive tires.
They will also allow you to drive a line that is fundmentally flawed, like Mike found out, but still go fairly quickly because of all of the grip. Mike had no problems staying on the edge of the tire, but it masked his incorrect line. When he went back street tires, he literally plowed out of the turns due to the reduced grip. It became obvious that he had to take a later apex, get on the power, unwind the wheel and keep the front tires at their limit, but not over it.
I hope that my examples have made my thoughts on this clearer.
correct me if I am wrong, but I think another way to explain the phenomena you discuss is simply to say that street tires are much more communicative, and they communicate at a speed that many drivers find easier to reach.
Rather than using numbers to illustrate your point, couldn't you say that a street tire starts talking more readily as you reach the tire's limit:
hey,
HEY,
LISTEN,
WHAT ARE YOU NUTS,
I AM GONNA LET GO IF YOU DON'T BACK OFF NOW (which the tire might start saying at, oh, 60 mph in a corner).
By contrast, an R-compound tire can be more like a passive aggressive significant other:
Silence,
silence,
silence,
silence,
Hey ********,
OH MAN YOU'VE GONE AND DONE IT NOW (which the tire might start saying at, oh 80 mph in a corner).
If the driver never reaches the limit, the R-compound tire has said nothing to the driver to let him or her know how ham-fisted they are being.
Or, if the driver isn't subtle or attentive, the driver will just sail right past the last minute warning and the driver will wonder what just happened.
Once you get used to the R-compunds, I "think" you could detect ham fisted driving just like you can with street tires. However, it is much, much easier to do so with street tires since they are so eager to let you know what they think, right?
Just thinking out loud here.
#173
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
Once you get used to the R-compunds, I "think" you could detect ham fisted driving just like you can with street tires. However, it is much, much easier to do so with street tires since they are so eager to let you know what they think, right?
Just thinking out loud here.
Just thinking out loud here.
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#174
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With respect to Hoosiers, the hardest thing to get used to was finding the limits during braking. You could lock up the tires without making any noise. The first few times I remember thinking to myself "why does it feel like I just accelerated a little"?
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#175
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
With respect to Hoosiers, the hardest thing to get used to was finding the limits during braking. You could lock up the tires without making any noise. The first few times I remember thinking to myself "why does it feel like I just accelerated a little"? ![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
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#176
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Todd, you're explanation mirrors what I am saying in a different style. I really could have used a few of your graphs.
Maybe tomorrow when I get back into the office, if there is any interest.
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#177
Race Director
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Originally Posted by BostonDMD
Crazy Canuck, I will be spending a lot of time on the Canadian tracks, any possibility you can hook me up with the instructor in your avatar.... ![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
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#179
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman
Todd, you're explanation mirrors what I am saying in a different style. I really could have used a few of your graphs.
Maybe tomorrow when I get back into the office, if there is any interest.
![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
![EEK!](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif)
#180
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman
Todd, you're explanation mirrors what I am saying in a different style. I really could have used a few of your graphs.
Maybe tomorrow when I get back into the office, if there is any interest.
![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)