needmoregarage

@peterp : By “over-ruling Todd’s personal physician, isn’t PCA transferring the liability from the doctor (who said he is fit to race), to PCA?

Right now, they say he cannot race. But if he supplied the requested data, we assume they would allow him to race (or would have, before all this happened). So let’s say he submitted the data, and they said, “You are fit to race” per their review of the information. Now (it seems to me) PCA has “bought” the liability, where prior to them stepping in the middle - it fell on the shoulders of his personal physician who ok’d him to race.

If I’m incorrect I’d appreciate understanding how it works.

Manifold

It raises the question of whether the medical committee really cares about safety vs just wanting to exercise power because it strokes their egos to do so. I think it’s probably the latter.

And in doing so, I agree that they’ve increased PCA’s liability, not just with racing, but also with DE where their lack of medical screening is made to look glaringly deficient in comparison with what they’re doing for racing.

fatbillybob

this thread is nearly 70,000 views in two months competing with the continents wide sporting event of F1 thread of 80,000 views in 1 1/2 years! I doubt this is the publicity that pca wants?

Matt Romanowski

I think it's being missed that a large part of the argument laid out in the letter Luigi posted https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9q9d6...qjhfq&e=1&dl=0 is that they club didn't follow their own rules. There are policies, procedures, and bylaws that are supposed to govern how PCA works and they were not followed. Heck, I didn't even know there was a medical committee in PCA until this and I've been a member for 25 years. I can't ever remember it being announced in Pano or anywhere else. They are not listed on the Club Racing website, Club Racing News, Pano, or the PCA website. I also don't believe they provide quarterly reports to the EC like the other committees do. From what a member can tell, the Medical Committee is completely off the books and doesn't exist.

He's also pointing out the extreme slow pace they are taking to resolve his problem. It's been something like 80 days (we need the counter again) since this started. It could have been solved really quickly like the 13/13 changes, but they have chosen not to act quickly. And in case that doesn't mean something to you, the 13/13 was a "fundamental element of PCA Club Racing rules." when Club Racing was founded https://pcaclubracing.org/how-it-began/

Manifold

I read the whistleblower complaint again. PCA's main line of defense would be:

- The medical committee can have additional requirements beyond the personal doctor's signoff. They are not overruling the personal doctor. The personal doctor's signoff is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition.

- The medical committee makes the decisions related to medical issues because they are doctors. Opinions of non-doctors carry no weight, and the doctors are not obligated to explain their reasoning to non-doctors because non-doctors don't have the medical expertise needed to understand the reasoning.

- The PCA rules don't prohibit a medical committee from being established, nor do they prohibit deferring to the opinions and findings of the medical committee on medical matters.

- Asking for CPAP usage data is a reasonable requirement and does not impose undue burden. This matter could be quickly and easily resolved by providing the data.

IMO, the only way to give the EC a justification for overruling the medical committee is to have qualified doctors opine on the medical issues and explain, with evidence, why the medical committee is wrong. The medical committee is claiming that they're 'experts', and you need other experts to show why they're wrong.

Matt Romanowski

I'd say when no other racing organization has a medical committee or required info, it's not a reasonable ask based on industry standards. AFAIK, none of the doctors involved are in the motorsports field or members of the relavent organizations based on my last reading of their membership lists. But, hopefully change will be affected and CR and PCA as a whole will be better. And Todd can race with PCA instead of all the others that he races with now. And maybe PCA will start to get back the racers they have lost over issues like this.

NaroEscape

IMO, with the assumption PCA is going to keep the medical committee, their role should be to “advise and confirm” not “overrule” the racers personal doctor.
IF the committee has a concern, they contact the drivers personal physician to discuss the concern, doctor to doctor, and CONFIRM that the personal physician signing off on the health of the driver understands the rigors of racing and feels confident in their evaluation based on the discussion. Simple and easy.

Manifold

I'll continue to play devil's advocate:

- PCA is going beyond standard of care because they care that much about safety.

- The standard of care established by the practices of other organizations is too low. Their rate of racing incidents may be increased because their standard of care is too low.

- The request to provide some data is not invasive because it's narrowly focused, and it doesn't impose undue burden.

I make these arguments to show that PCA also has a case to make, and we should be advising Luigi based on a realistic assessment of what he's up against. He's paying a substantial price for fighting this 'good fight', and I would suggest that he shouldn't continue the fight if he's not going to win, and if his fellow racers aren't going to go on record supporting him by boycotting the races.

Manifold

That would be a good solution, but I doubt that the medical committee is going to relinquish their power.

LuigiVampa

PCA can make and enforce whatever rules it wants. We, as members, can advocate for change.

Matt made the only point that matters - I'm not seeking a rule change. I'm saying that a rule being enforced doesn't exist.

Happy Father's Day to all those dads out there. For those with daughters, we are the reason why they will marry someone who knows how to drive manual transmission.

Nowanker

peterp does make a good point about the need for long term CPAP usage, to undo the longer term effects on judgement with O2 deprivation.
But there are many, many other reasons for bad judgement. Being hung over, or just plain tired, for example, are probably a much bigger risk. To some extent, we're all operating under the honor system.
Undiagnosed OSA may be a danger, but that isn't being addressed by the Committee. Everyone I know using a CPAP takes great effort to make sure they're never without it...
I believe the primary physician's statement of 'OK to Race' is plenty adequate. And clearly, Luigi's track history shows him exercising good judgement.
Except, perhaps, that racing itself is a display of poor judgement... But that's a different debate.
PCA's arbitrary (and selective) application of phantom rules is the fight here. Just happens that the imaginary rule is ridiculous.

LuigiVampa

Absolutely, if you have OSA and don't use a CPAP there are long term effects. That's why I use it and that's why I am losing weight so that I get to a point where I don't need it anymore.

Where do we draw that huge line on bad habits, etc. that can effect long term health?

Good point - anyone involved in racing has suspect judgment.

fatbillybob

Veloce Raptor

BWHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!

GlenL

Perhaps someone has insight into the reasons that PCA CR uses the in-house medical evaluation. Is it written into the insurance policy?

I am not surprised that the doctors referenced a somewhat-related industry standard in their evaluation. No one can be an expert on everything. If you're going to be formal, then there needs to be a basis for the evaluations.

I support letting drivers' doctors make the pass/fail decision but am concerned that they aren't total experts, either. They can ask for other tests or seek input. They also have the patient right in front of them can can judge overall physical and mental condition more immediately.

And I'm 0-for-3 in SILs driving a stick. I am 2-for-4 in getting my kids on the track with a manual P-car.