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My reading of his letter was that he wants them to follow the rules as laid out in the PCA Bylaws, Procedures Manual, and other PCA documents. And while not a lawyer and not staying in a Holiday Inn Express, the Whistleblower action calls for a (self) examination of the processes, procedures, and if they are being followed. I think if they do that honestly, there are some problems that can be addressed. I personally hope and I think everyone who is actually involved hopes that there is no need for any additional action besides fixing the club's procedures and actions to match what the rules say along with being reasonable.
+1^
From the experience of losing approx $20k on a single race: no amount of pressure on National resulted in any change. So the region ate it, and never repeated the event. This was despite decent attendance, fantastic weather, a highly praised venue with plenty of volunteers (local region people) to support the race. The financial pain was too great. Why would the region take the risk and repeat the loss without some safety net?
Without a reasonable chance of break-even (or at least a minimal loss) it’s a BIG financial risk.
Yup, that's exactly how it works.
A region close to me used to have great attendance for their DEs and Club races. That is until one year PCA National had this push and they were talked into holding a vintage race. They never really recovered from that fiasco. Since then their event attendance is way down, no more club races, etc. This year they are not even putting on an event.
When I became Safety Chair for my region many years ago, I emailed the National Safety Chair to discuss safety. Didn't get a response. I emailed again, still no response.
When I became Safety Chair for my region many years ago, I emailed the National Safety Chair to discuss safety. Didn't get a response. I emailed again, still no response.
Sure sounds like you guys need to find out exactly how these people get put in the position of power for YOUR club and start working to remove them... No room in a club for dictators.
+1^
From the experience of losing approx $20k on a single race: no amount of pressure on National resulted in any change. So the region ate it, and never repeated the event. This was despite decent attendance, fantastic weather, a highly praised venue with plenty of volunteers (local region people) to support the race. The financial pain was too great. Why would the region take the risk and repeat the loss without some safety net?
Without a reasonable chance of break-even (or at least a minimal loss) it’s a BIG financial risk.
Another germane anecdote: over before-dinner drinks with the then-President of the club in which I brought up this exact situation (years after the event), one in which I had countless national officials as well as drivers say "Pitt Race is great; we have to come back here!", my comments to him regarding the strange "business model" if you will of how Club Races are operated from a financial respect, I got the "well, that's the way we do it" response. No willingness to discuss alternative approaches with a principal from the region who had just took a financial beating from putting on a CR....
Spent 34 years of my life in stratosphere flying jets with paying passengers behind me. A lament of airline pilots is the not-uncommon situation when we in the aluminum tubes have a concern about something, and the typical response is "You guys are the pilots, we're management, and we'll make the decisions". Not unlike PCA...?
Last edited by DKP 97 C2 Coupe; 06-12-2024 at 08:29 AM.
Reason: typo
That is why I noted Luigi doesn’t want racers to boycott. It would be an example of winning a battle but losing the war when there are no more races to attend after the boycott is lifted. I think the term is Pyrrhic victory.
Correct.
My battle is not with PCA. It is with certain people who at this moment in time are part of PCA leadership. There is a difference.
I just spent two glorious days at Watkins Glen with my friends at CVR. I'm glad for their support and friendship. Although this matter was brought up a few times it did nothing to dampen my mood. I was at the track with my friends and that was enough.
I've heard that the meeting took place. They knew I was up at WGI with my car, and knew I wanted to race this weekend, but I have not heard anything. I was hoping for an eleventh hour stay of execution. I'm back home now and I won't be racing with PCA this weekend.
It comes as no surprise that they want to prolong this. There were so many avenues of compromise that could have avoided this situation.
If there was a rule saying that I owe them this information don't you think they would have shown it to me by now just to end this? Would they keep it secret?
I'm really curious what their position is going to be when they finally get around to letting me know.
My battle is not with PCA. It is with certain people who at this moment in time are part of PCA leadership. There is a difference.
I just spent two glorious days at Watkins Glen with my friends at CVR. I'm glad for their support and friendship. Although this matter was brought up a few times it did nothing to dampen my mood. I was at the track with my friends and that was enough.
I've heard that the meeting took place. They knew I was up at WGI with my car, and knew I wanted to race this weekend, but I have not heard anything. I was hoping for an eleventh hour stay of execution. I'm back home now and I won't be racing with PCA this weekend.
It comes as no surprise that they want to prolong this. There were so many avenues of compromise that could have avoided this situation.
If there was a rule saying that I owe them this information don't you think they would have shown it to me by now just to end this? Would they keep it secret?
I'm really curious what their position is going to be when they finally get around to letting me know.
I personally do think it is a PCA-level problem around governance.
And while there are many wonderful people in and around the community, there are plenty of other organizations that also have wonderful people and great racing. So I haven’t missed PCA. If it were just a few people, I might feel differently, but it’s the way the organization governs itself and enables those folks that made it easy to walk away.
Honestly, I do think people should boycott and go elsewhere (or create a competitor pcar club). An organization that doesn’t serve its members shouldn’t receive support just because it does some things while trying to Bigfoot some members (and I would love to see an anonymous survey of different member’s experiences).
Luigi: sorry that you ended up with the wrong end of the stick on this one. I commend you sticking up for your principles.
My battle is not with PCA. It is with certain people who at this moment in time are part of PCA leadership. There is a difference.
I just spent two glorious days at Watkins Glen with my friends at CVR. I'm glad for their support and friendship. Although this matter was brought up a few times it did nothing to dampen my mood. I was at the track with my friends and that was enough.
I've heard that the meeting took place. They knew I was up at WGI with my car, and knew I wanted to race this weekend, but I have not heard anything. I was hoping for an eleventh hour stay of execution. I'm back home now and I won't be racing with PCA this weekend.
It comes as no surprise that they want to prolong this. There were so many avenues of compromise that could have avoided this situation.
If there was a rule saying that I owe them this information don't you think they would have shown it to me by now just to end this? Would they keep it secret?
I'm really curious what their position is going to be when they finally get around to letting me know.
Great hanging with you guys and really great getting to sit down and talk about this situation. Fun bunch and ridiculous amounts of track time. Lots of courtesy and respect on track as well. Great paddock vibe to boot.
You clearly have lots of support from CVR, but this has gone far beyond CVR at this point, and I have a feeling that this is gonna come to a head sooner than later. What actually happens, who knows at this point…
Keep fighting the good fight, and maybe, just maybe, some changes are in the air.
Very glad to hear you differentiate between PCA as a whole and the few people at the top causing you these issues. To me, that’s a very important distinction for you to make, and I was relieved to hear you say it that way.
Be great if they “undug” their heels and give you the recourse you clearly should have coming.
Keep up the fight and race with other groups for now. For the first time (after speaking with you in person), I think things may change for the better at this point, but for now, just get your racing fix elsewhere. Me thinks you’ll be racing with PCA again sooner than you think. You are clearly causing the leadership some issues, public issues, and that’s where your recourse will come from if it comes at all. Lots of folks have your back. Keep up the good fight and hopefully you get actual changes made.
Thanks to CVR for a great (and dry) couple of days.
Question. Who is really in charge of PCA National? Who calls the shots?
The medical committee.
They have a medical evaluation form, a concussion policy, and no other rules, guidance or minimum standards, yet they report to no one. It is not even clear if they are a real committee pursuant to the PCA bylaws.
It is the medical committee star chamber.
If you have nothing else to do skim through PCA's bylaws and MNPP. This is a club with over 165,00 member, millions of dollars in the bank, a headquarter building in Maryland, yet I have seen local garden clubs with better bylaws. You also might want to wonder why certain portions of the bylaws and MNPP are labeled "Limited Distribution". It's our car club - why would anything be kept secret?
Last edited by LuigiVampa; 06-12-2024 at 10:20 AM.
I personally do think it is a PCA-level problem around governance.
And while there are many wonderful people in and around the community, there are plenty of other organizations that also have wonderful people and great racing. So I haven’t missed PCA. If it were just a few people, I might feel differently, but it’s the way the organization governs itself and enables those folks that made it easy to walk away.
Honestly, I do think people should boycott and go elsewhere (or create a competitor pcar club). An organization that doesn’t serve its members shouldn’t receive support just because it does some things while trying to Bigfoot some members (and I would love to see an anonymous survey of different member’s experiences).
Luigi: sorry that you ended up with the wrong end of the stick on this one. I commend you sticking up for your principles.
I think the root of the problem is that these are volunteer positions. Given that many of these positions take a lot of time while providing no financial compensation, some (not all!) of the people in these positions are doing it to have a feeling of status and power which they don't otherwise have in their careers, and once they're in those positions, they'll enjoy flaunting their power. It's like corporate politics, but even worse, because these people don't really get their positions due to merit, and they're not under pressure to perform well because there's no risk of losing a paying job.
__________________ -Peter Krause www.peterkrause.net www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
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I think the root of the problem is that these are volunteer positions. Given that many of these positions take a lot of time while providing no financial compensation, some (not all!) of the people in these positions are doing it to have a feeling of status and power which they don't otherwise have in their careers, and once they're in those positions, they'll enjoy flaunting their power. It's like corporate politics, but even worse, because these people don't really get their positions due to merit, and they're not under pressure to perform well because there's no risk of losing a paying job.
06-11-2024, 12:43 PM
