dgrobs

The OSA. Nice.

Manifold

A human body in a crashed car doesn’t know and doesn’t care whether it’s DE, amateur racing, or pro racing.

fatbillybob

That has nothing to do with who is qualified to race in what series or what club or at what level within a club. Racers who just say the old guy should just do DE's just don't get it. I know DE guys in open passing groups who are faster and better than guys in race groups. I know plenty of young guys in race groups I give lots of space to and just don't want to be around. A slow guy, old or young, driving with awareness and predictability is no threat. Anyone who catches that slow guy at a "no-pass" point on the track perhaps in the heat of battle is a "you problem." You opponent was just better than you to put you in that situation.

Manifold

I’m just saying that someone not fit enough to race is also not fit enough to do DE. IMO.

Zhao

My former career dealt with collisions. 10s of thousands of them so I have a pretty good personal sample pool of collision data. Most old people hang up the keys when their decline reaches a certain point, but a not insignificant amount have a clear pattern of not caring and continue to drive well beyond when they should stop. The pattern is pretty predictable too. Collision, followed by rapidly increasing collisions (especially if they are in a new unfamiliar car they can't muscle memory around) in quick succession until there is an intervention, they can't get insurance anymore, or they run out of money fixing it outside of insurance to keep it off the record. There is nothing special about guys going racing so those same types of people will end up in race cars too.

We've also probably all met examples of people who are not a problem. I met a guy once, I jokenly called bs on him when I found out he was in his 90s as I legit thought he was 65ish; hopped out of his car like it was nothing, metally, physically, and how he talked and acted I would have bet money he was mid 60s, but nope, early 90s. Just because guys like that exist doesn't mean there aren't guys who are a problem. In my region there are at least a few who probably shouldn't be on a race track anymore. I've known some of them for close to 20 years now so I've seen their definite decline over the years.

Zhao

Agreed there. The risk is lower though as they're likely to only collect themselves rather than a bunch of other cars, and my experience is HPDE guys move on to road racing or get bored after half a decade so it's not likely you're going to get someone cruising HPDE's into their twilight years.

Still risk though. Locally a few years ago there was some monkey in a cayman R who confused his pedals in a braking zone much like we hear about at farmers markets and actually went through a barrier/fence and almost took out some workers on the other side; that was at a PCA HPDE.

ProCoach

Man, I'll bet you're fun at parties...

ProCoach

I'll just add that especially in DE's, every driver has multiple interactions with volunteer registration, staff, CI's, classroom and in-car instructors. Most drivers in DE's are constantly evaluated by these folks interacting with them.

That level of scrutiny rarely allows this "too old" or "in cognitive decline" drivers to participate, let alone continue.

Not the same as your sample pool.

ProCoach

Since when has that stopped anyone who can get a doc in the box to sign off (for racing) or go through the motions (in a DE) from doing on-track activities. Sure, I agree with you, but I see it every day.

Heck, I saw VP drivers and FC drivers today that I have serious fitness questions about...

They're not requiring physicals for DE yet, but keep talking and they will...

Matt Romanowski

But did you fall asleep racing today? Maybe we can keep a record. Right now your something like XXX/XXX (100%) at not falling asleep in a race car. It can be listed with the countdown until you apply for a PCA license again.

dgrobs

I’ve been telling him this for 2000 posts now, and he’s just not listening. He keeps bringing it up and it’s bothersome for numerous reasons. That needs to stop. Manny, please.

Coach, also, nice work with “doc in the box”.

Manifold

I was a PCA Safety Chair in my region, and I deal with safety stuff professionally. No, it's not fun (I've dealt with a lot of cases involving fatalities), but it's important, and safety is one of the key issues in this thread.

Manifold

You're generally right, but some people decline gradually and can continue driving for a while past their expiration date before they're finally told to hang it up. I had an elderly student who "forgot to brake" approaching the bus stop at WG, until I emphatically told him to "brake!". He had a tremor which visibly made his arm shake. CIs knew about his situation, and he was on track for at least a year after the WG episode. He was rich and liked fast cars, and wanted to drive on track before he was physically unable to do it.

Manifold

And I've explained why it won't happen. The DE market is muchlarger than club racing, and there are lots of organizers competing to attract participants. If PCA goes overboard on medical clearance and requires people to have their doc sign off to drive in DE, all the business will go elsewhere (Chin, SCCA, NASA, HOD, BMW CCA, regional clubs, etc.), and PCA knows that, so it won't happen.

ProCoach

That reasoning hasn't saved the PCA CR program oversight from going overboard, and the migration started from there to others some time ago.