PCA medical committee revoked my race license
08-21-2024, 07:36 PM
#1936
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If they want to get CPAP data, than they should be checking for compliance with insulin treatment of diabetics, whether people with vision issues are wearing contacts or glasses, if drivers can get out of their cars in enough time if they are on fire, if all the gear and safety equipment is operable before each race, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc., or drop the requirement to look at CPAP data.
They cherry picked one medical issue and decided to hyper focus on it when the data is only historical. If I use the CPAP for months and months but don't bring it to me during a race weekend all that data is useless.
The PCA requirement for CPAP data is absolutely ridiculous in the context of overall risk. The "it wouldn't hurt" argument is specious at best.
They cherry picked one medical issue and decided to hyper focus on it when the data is only historical. If I use the CPAP for months and months but don't bring it to me during a race weekend all that data is useless.
The PCA requirement for CPAP data is absolutely ridiculous in the context of overall risk. The "it wouldn't hurt" argument is specious at best.
I've fallen into a role of trying to play mediator here. It seems that I'm failing ...
08-21-2024, 07:46 PM
#1937
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PCA, their circus, their monkeys and Todd fought an organization that doesn't have to have an outside arbiter on their rules or decisions and can always fall back on liability concerns. You don't have to be a lawyer to know that once "safety" and "liability" are thrown out there, it supersedes all other matters, even when no supporting data exists.
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08-21-2024, 08:35 PM
#1939
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Thing is, no matter how much research you do, you're not a doctor, nor are you the person/committee who makes the decision on medical clearance. The people who make that decision are doctors, and they know a lot of things you can't imagine knowing (you don't know what you don't know). They don't need to explain to you why they want the CPAP data, and they shouldn't have even tried to explain it. They also don't need to explain to you why......
Indicating that anybody in 'authority' is automatically right, and therefore above reproach, just by virtue of being in authority
I think I'm going to be sick.
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08-21-2024, 09:25 PM
#1940
Drifting
You act like every club and doctor agrees with PCA on this.
You think PCA is alone on having discussions on this stuff? The only thing they are alone on is in what road they took after having said discussion. Everyone went right and they took off running left. The fact is no other clubs would have banned him from racing. And doctors all over the continent disagree with PCA that this is a factor because they routinely sign off on people as medically fit for racing. Todd's own doctor said it wasn't a factor. Whatever PCA thinks its doing its not helping the club, it's not growing the sport, and it's certainly not protecting themselves from liability.
You think PCA is alone on having discussions on this stuff? The only thing they are alone on is in what road they took after having said discussion. Everyone went right and they took off running left. The fact is no other clubs would have banned him from racing. And doctors all over the continent disagree with PCA that this is a factor because they routinely sign off on people as medically fit for racing. Todd's own doctor said it wasn't a factor. Whatever PCA thinks its doing its not helping the club, it's not growing the sport, and it's certainly not protecting themselves from liability.
Other clubs don't require CPAP data or (IIRC from prior posts) even ask about OSA. That is true. However, that does not mean, at all, in any way, that those clubs are fine with people who need CPAP racing without using CPAP. It only means that the clubs have a looser process that trusts people to be responsible. I don't disagree with their looser approach because I believe that people who really need CPAP will use it.
Those other clubs have a trust system. That's the full extent of that data point, but it has been inadvertently (and incorrectly) extrapolated by many in this thread into the belief these clubs think it's fine for anyone who needs CPAP to not use it. That is not the case. I'm sure there are individuals in those other clubs who believe it's not important, but that's because they don't know what they are talking about. I've used CPAP for 25 years. I'm 100% fine with CPAP and I'm not safe driving a golf cart without it. There are probably some with milder conditions who may be okay without it, but for most (probably the vast majority) with non-trivial OSA, it's not okay at all. Nobody makes safety decisions on the "best case" scenario of a minority that can be okay without CPAP, they make the safety rules to cover the typical and worst-case scenarios. Talk to people with non-trivial OSA if you want to know the reality.
The idea that has been repeated a thousand times in this thread, that it is simply binary risk whether you either fall asleep or not without CPAP, is ludicrous. When you are extremely tired driving on the road, for example, are you driving 100% fine all the way up to the moment that you finally fall asleep, or is your driving impaired (sometimes very significantly impaired) while you are on the verge of falling asleep? (Spoiler alert: It's the second one).
Medical conditions are more complex than they seem -- just like having the fastest pace on track is a million times more complex than it appears to a layman. The "I'm smart enough to know everything a doctor knows" make as much sense as a somebody who has never done any performance driving saying "I know how to be as fast on track as any racer because I've been driving cars for 50 years". Intelligence has nothing to do with it, you don't know what you don't know. Most people who have never raced think having a fast car is 95% of being fast on track. They are absolutely certain they are right. They aren't. Driving fast is a lot more complicated than that, so are medical conditions.
Few, if any, who need CPAP should race without using CPAP. Take it from people who use CPAP. There are also general doctors who can be wrong about that. That's why I asked Luigi in a prior post why he didn't have his sleep doctor write a statement echoing his claims that CPAP isn't important for racing. Somebody commented that that was a rude statement. It's not. It's a valid question. If Luigi's right, his own sleep doctor is an actual expert who would back him up that CPAP isn't important for racing. Yes, I know his sleep doctor won't back it up -- and therefore I can see why somebody would think that was a smart-*** "loaded" question on my part -- but it could not be a more valid question. The fact that his sleep doctor won't back it up proves that Luigi has been wrong from the start on his evisceration of the PCA doctor being wrong about the importance of CPAP.
The reality is that PCA doctor has always been 100% right hat CPAP is important for those who need it. There may be rare exceptions in mild cases, maybe even Luigi's, but nobody makes safety rules for the rare "best case" scenario. The PCA doctor has never been wrong about the importance of CPAP, the only valid question is whether the PCA could adopt the looser trust system other racing clubs use. The longer Luigi claims the doctor is wrong, the deeper the hole he digs for himself.
Last edited by peterp; 08-21-2024 at 09:44 PM.
08-21-2024, 09:32 PM
#1941
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08-21-2024, 09:44 PM
#1942
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08-21-2024, 09:46 PM
#1943
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08-21-2024, 09:48 PM
#1944
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This data point about other clubs is being incorrectly interpreted by many, which is why so many people in this thread are wrong about the importance of CPAP for those who need it.
Other clubs don't require CPAP data or (IIRC from prior posts) even ask about OSA. That is true. However, that does not mean, at all, in any way, that those clubs are fine with people who need CPAP racing without using CPAP. It only means that the clubs have a looser process that trusts people to be responsible. I don't disagree with their looser approach because I believe that people who really need CPAP will use it.
Those other clubs have a trust system. That's the full extent of that data point, but it has been inadvertently (and incorrectly) extrapolated by many in this thread into the belief these clubs think it's fine for anyone who needs CPAP to not use it. That is not the case. I'm sure there are individuals in those other clubs who believe it's not important, but that's because they don't know what they are talking about. I've used CPAP for 25 years. I'm 100% fine with CPAP and I'm not safe driving a golf cart without it. There are probably some with milder conditions who may be okay without it, but for most (probably the vast majority) with non-trivial OSA, it's not okay at all. Nobody makes safety decisions on the "best case" scenario of a minority that can be okay without CPAP, they make the safety rules to cover the typical and worst-case scenarios. Talk to people with non-trivial OSA if you want to know the reality.
The idea that has been repeated a thousand times in this thread, that it is simply binary risk whether you either fall asleep or not without CPAP, is ludicrous. When you are extremely tired driving on the road, for example, are you driving 100% fine all the way up to the moment that you finally fall asleep, or is your driving impaired (sometimes very significantly impaired) while you are on the verge of falling asleep? (Spoiler alert: It's the second one).
Medical conditions are more complex than they seem -- just like having the fastest pace on track is a million times more complex than it appears to a layman. The "I'm smart enough to know everything a doctor knows" make as much sense as a somebody who has never done any performance driving saying "I know how to be as fast on track as any racer because I've been driving cars for 50 years". Intelligence has nothing to do with it, you don't know what you don't know. Most people who have never raced think having a fast car is 95% of being fast on track. They are absolutely certain they are right. They aren't. Driving fast is a lot more complicated than that, so are medical conditions.
Few, if any, who need CPAP should race without using CPAP. Take it from people who use CPAP. There are also general doctors who can be wrong about that. That's why I asked Luigi in a prior post why he didn't have his sleep doctor write a statement echoing his claims that CPAP isn't important for racing. Somebody commented that that was a rude statement. It's not. It's a valid question. If Luigi's right, his own sleep doctor is an actual expert who would back him up that CPAP isn't important for racing. Yes, I know his sleep doctor won't back it up -- and therefore I can see why somebody would think that was a smart-*** "loaded" question on my part -- but it could not be a more valid question. The fact that his sleep doctor won't back it up proves that Luigi has been wrong from the start on his evisceration of the PCA doctor being wrong about the importance of CPAP.
The reality is that PCA doctor has always been 100% right hat CPAP is important for those who need it. There may be rare exceptions in mild cases, maybe even Luigi's, but nobody makes safety rules for the rare "best case" scenario. The PCA doctor has never been wrong about the importance of CPAP, the only valid question is whether the PCA could adopt the looser trust system other racing clubs use. The longer Luigi claims the doctor is wrong, the deeper the hole he digs for himself.
Other clubs don't require CPAP data or (IIRC from prior posts) even ask about OSA. That is true. However, that does not mean, at all, in any way, that those clubs are fine with people who need CPAP racing without using CPAP. It only means that the clubs have a looser process that trusts people to be responsible. I don't disagree with their looser approach because I believe that people who really need CPAP will use it.
Those other clubs have a trust system. That's the full extent of that data point, but it has been inadvertently (and incorrectly) extrapolated by many in this thread into the belief these clubs think it's fine for anyone who needs CPAP to not use it. That is not the case. I'm sure there are individuals in those other clubs who believe it's not important, but that's because they don't know what they are talking about. I've used CPAP for 25 years. I'm 100% fine with CPAP and I'm not safe driving a golf cart without it. There are probably some with milder conditions who may be okay without it, but for most (probably the vast majority) with non-trivial OSA, it's not okay at all. Nobody makes safety decisions on the "best case" scenario of a minority that can be okay without CPAP, they make the safety rules to cover the typical and worst-case scenarios. Talk to people with non-trivial OSA if you want to know the reality.
The idea that has been repeated a thousand times in this thread, that it is simply binary risk whether you either fall asleep or not without CPAP, is ludicrous. When you are extremely tired driving on the road, for example, are you driving 100% fine all the way up to the moment that you finally fall asleep, or is your driving impaired (sometimes very significantly impaired) while you are on the verge of falling asleep? (Spoiler alert: It's the second one).
Medical conditions are more complex than they seem -- just like having the fastest pace on track is a million times more complex than it appears to a layman. The "I'm smart enough to know everything a doctor knows" make as much sense as a somebody who has never done any performance driving saying "I know how to be as fast on track as any racer because I've been driving cars for 50 years". Intelligence has nothing to do with it, you don't know what you don't know. Most people who have never raced think having a fast car is 95% of being fast on track. They are absolutely certain they are right. They aren't. Driving fast is a lot more complicated than that, so are medical conditions.
Few, if any, who need CPAP should race without using CPAP. Take it from people who use CPAP. There are also general doctors who can be wrong about that. That's why I asked Luigi in a prior post why he didn't have his sleep doctor write a statement echoing his claims that CPAP isn't important for racing. Somebody commented that that was a rude statement. It's not. It's a valid question. If Luigi's right, his own sleep doctor is an actual expert who would back him up that CPAP isn't important for racing. Yes, I know his sleep doctor won't back it up -- and therefore I can see why somebody would think that was a smart-*** "loaded" question on my part -- but it could not be a more valid question. The fact that his sleep doctor won't back it up proves that Luigi has been wrong from the start on his evisceration of the PCA doctor being wrong about the importance of CPAP.
The reality is that PCA doctor has always been 100% right hat CPAP is important for those who need it. There may be rare exceptions in mild cases, maybe even Luigi's, but nobody makes safety rules for the rare "best case" scenario. The PCA doctor has never been wrong about the importance of CPAP, the only valid question is whether the PCA could adopt the looser trust system other racing clubs use. The longer Luigi claims the doctor is wrong, the deeper the hole he digs for himself.
I read 3 words and quit. Too long.
08-21-2024, 09:51 PM
#1946
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08-21-2024, 10:08 PM
#1947
Drifting
It's kind of amazing. People say have said I'm wrong in a gaziilion posts, but then they "forget" to quote the section that's wrong and explain why it's wrong. Or they claim the post is too long -- for a post every few days. And the only reason the posts are long is because people have failed to absorb the points or challenge them with, you know, actual facts. Lot's of reasons to keep your head buried in the sand and avoid discussing actual facts. But the gang is doing great. Things have worked out well for Luigi in the PCA, and the trend is only positive
.
08-21-2024, 10:24 PM
#1948
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Get it through your thick myopic heads that historical CPAP data keeps no one safe. They would have to ask for data from the night before to have any meaning.
You guys are suffering from confirmation bias in a serious way and desperately trying to bend the facts to suit your position without any substance.
The more you argue the more ridiculous you seem.
You guys are suffering from confirmation bias in a serious way and desperately trying to bend the facts to suit your position without any substance.
The more you argue the more ridiculous you seem.
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08-21-2024, 11:34 PM
#1949
Three Wheelin'
How can you comment on my experience if you don't even know what a sleep test score is? I was there and spoke with a HCP who is a specialist in sleep disorders and had a 1+ hour conversation going over the data and learned that my specific case was a 4 and borderline for sleep apnea and it was my choice if I wanted to move forward with treatment, but if insured with Medicare I would be considered a 3 and not within their guidelines as eligible for treatment. It's really as simple as that and not a black and white issue.
In reading this thread, Todd has indicated he's an 8, but I'm not so presumptuous to assume we're being scored on the exact same scale. I have no idea what Todd's sleep test entailed so I can't say, with any certainty, his 8 is twice as bad as my 4. No offense, but you come off as a know it all with all kinds of certainties and have demonstrated that diagnosis over Rennlist really doesn't work.
In reading this thread, Todd has indicated he's an 8, but I'm not so presumptuous to assume we're being scored on the exact same scale. I have no idea what Todd's sleep test entailed so I can't say, with any certainty, his 8 is twice as bad as my 4. No offense, but you come off as a know it all with all kinds of certainties and have demonstrated that diagnosis over Rennlist really doesn't work.
That is just plain wrong.
The "same scale?"
Yikes.
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