This is why I stopped Instructing at DE events
06-07-2021, 03:09 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
2 wheels off probably turned in to early then yanked it back and went head on into guard rail- not knowing anything about the incident I can almost guarantee
Sad part is the incident could have ben avoided 100% - we need to get back to teaching fundamentals . The nonsense of my student is going faster so I taught him something is all BS . How about teaching the line is inches not feet ,how about teaching about how to correct mid corner if you find yourself turning in to early. etc. etc.
Where did we loose the fundamentals ????
Sorry I just get frustrated that all these crashes ( yes happening more then you all know) happen in DE when 99.9% are avoidable with the right understanding of the Basic Fundamentals
Sad part is the incident could have ben avoided 100% - we need to get back to teaching fundamentals . The nonsense of my student is going faster so I taught him something is all BS . How about teaching the line is inches not feet ,how about teaching about how to correct mid corner if you find yourself turning in to early. etc. etc.
Where did we loose the fundamentals ????
Sorry I just get frustrated that all these crashes ( yes happening more then you all know) happen in DE when 99.9% are avoidable with the right understanding of the Basic Fundamentals
Last edited by Steve113; 06-07-2021 at 03:12 PM.
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06-07-2021, 03:21 PM
#17
Instructor
Surely. "Two wheels off" is caused by failure to make the corner, usually the result of too much entry speed. The car has exceeded the ability of the tires to keep it on the blacktop and drifts off the pavement to the outside corner in most cases. There is saying to remember, either on street or track driving it applies equally. "Slow In - Fast Out". What that means is get your car slowed down before you make the first turn input and then accelerate through the corner on track out. Do your stopping in a straight line - THEN turn in and apply throttle, Do that and you will rarely drop two wheels off.
When two wheels go off, inexperienced drivers panic because there is a lot of noise, dirt and gravel hitting the underside of the car combined with a lurch of the vehicle. What novices do is then jerk the wheel to get the car back on the track which is absolutely the wrong thing to do. When you go off, stay off and get the car slowed down - a lot. Then you can safely come back onto the blacktop. When the car is jerked back to the road, the tires will hook up but will be at an angle to the track and the car will go launching to the opposite side of the track in an uncontrollable skid. This is where you get the big wrecks into the Armco or tree lines, or roll the car.
We cover this in the driver meetings ahead of time, but everyone is all amped up to get on the track and many don't listen well, anxious to get out there and get going. In days gone by, we Instructors could reach over and yank the emergency brake handle if we saw the student about to go back to the track after an off, and that spins the car. But modern cars with electronic parking brakes don't work the same. So the rule of thumb to remember is once you are off track, stay off. Stop or get slowed enough to regain control.
As to barrier crashes, it happens, but not with any frequency you can really nail down. You can go to a dozen events and see none, then the next one there are three cars that hit something and get damaged. The smart way to go to the track is buy a dedicated race car like an old Miata. Bang it up, you have maybe $ 8K into it. Take your $ 150K Porsche and put it upside down you're going to be real unhappy, or blow the engine and you're dealing with a repair in the tens of thousands of dollars. If you just want to go out aa few times a year in your street car, dial it back and leave yourself a safety margin is not a bad idea. Most incidents happen when a driver is trying to go 10/10th's, full out.
When two wheels go off, inexperienced drivers panic because there is a lot of noise, dirt and gravel hitting the underside of the car combined with a lurch of the vehicle. What novices do is then jerk the wheel to get the car back on the track which is absolutely the wrong thing to do. When you go off, stay off and get the car slowed down - a lot. Then you can safely come back onto the blacktop. When the car is jerked back to the road, the tires will hook up but will be at an angle to the track and the car will go launching to the opposite side of the track in an uncontrollable skid. This is where you get the big wrecks into the Armco or tree lines, or roll the car.
We cover this in the driver meetings ahead of time, but everyone is all amped up to get on the track and many don't listen well, anxious to get out there and get going. In days gone by, we Instructors could reach over and yank the emergency brake handle if we saw the student about to go back to the track after an off, and that spins the car. But modern cars with electronic parking brakes don't work the same. So the rule of thumb to remember is once you are off track, stay off. Stop or get slowed enough to regain control.
As to barrier crashes, it happens, but not with any frequency you can really nail down. You can go to a dozen events and see none, then the next one there are three cars that hit something and get damaged. The smart way to go to the track is buy a dedicated race car like an old Miata. Bang it up, you have maybe $ 8K into it. Take your $ 150K Porsche and put it upside down you're going to be real unhappy, or blow the engine and you're dealing with a repair in the tens of thousands of dollars. If you just want to go out aa few times a year in your street car, dial it back and leave yourself a safety margin is not a bad idea. Most incidents happen when a driver is trying to go 10/10th's, full out.
06-07-2021, 03:25 PM
#18
Instructor
PCA DE School yesterday, from one of my pals who was instructing at Summit Point with Founder's Region this weekend. I was considering instructing for the event, but then decided I didn't want to get back into it. The cars are really fast now, the wrecks big, and its very easy to get hurt. At the end of the day, these are street cars not designed for big impacts at speed. So here's the takeaway for you guys that like to do DE events and I'm glad that no one had to go to the hospital. FYI this is very common, to panic when two wheels go off. Knowing what to do when that happens is the difference from having a dusty car vs a wrecked car.
1) Be sure to buy track insurance unless you can afford to write-off your car.
2) When you have an Instructor in the car with you, realize you are responsible for their life and well-being, maybe dial it back a little and keep a safety margin.
3) These incidents DO happen but are rarely made public, It's the dirty little secret of DE events, you won't read about them in the Chapter newsletters.
"Sadly, we lost a White GT4 here yesterday. Last session for the white group (experienced drivers, most are solo, but this one had an instructor). The driver dropped 2 wheels off on the exit and panicked. Then, spun to the inside and went front first into a concrete wall. Airbags deployed and neither person was hurt. The car spun around and the backed into the wall with enough force to move it. It was very hot yesterday (and worse today). I will bet that fatigue, heat, and dehydration all were a factor".
Be careful out there. Have fun and bring you and your car home in one piece. Remember there are no trophies or prize money at DE Schools.
- Duane C < Instructor from 1996 to 2014, retired.
1) Be sure to buy track insurance unless you can afford to write-off your car.
2) When you have an Instructor in the car with you, realize you are responsible for their life and well-being, maybe dial it back a little and keep a safety margin.
3) These incidents DO happen but are rarely made public, It's the dirty little secret of DE events, you won't read about them in the Chapter newsletters.
"Sadly, we lost a White GT4 here yesterday. Last session for the white group (experienced drivers, most are solo, but this one had an instructor). The driver dropped 2 wheels off on the exit and panicked. Then, spun to the inside and went front first into a concrete wall. Airbags deployed and neither person was hurt. The car spun around and the backed into the wall with enough force to move it. It was very hot yesterday (and worse today). I will bet that fatigue, heat, and dehydration all were a factor".
Be careful out there. Have fun and bring you and your car home in one piece. Remember there are no trophies or prize money at DE Schools.
- Duane C < Instructor from 1996 to 2014, retired.
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Manda Racing (06-20-2021)
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06-07-2021, 05:31 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
I'll offer a few counterpoints here. As an instructor if I am not comfortable with the student that I am coaching from the right seat, we pit immediately and come to an understanding before going back out again. If we don't come to an understanding I get out of the car, period. Thankfully I've never had to do that and have always had students that were cautious and receptive to my coaching.
That being said most incidents don't just happen out of the blue, and there is typically some sort of buildup of minor mistakes that if kept in check keep the big ones from happening. In my experience telling the student that the car just saved them (PSM intervention that they didn't detect/feel) helps reinforce why they need to listen to me even more. Also, I've always talked about what to do when things start to go wrong in the classroom session to try and reinforce how to save themselves and their car, some listen and some don't but we go over it every time.
Regarding the last session incident topic, since I'm typically giving up my first session of the day teaching the classroom session and generally another session sometime during the early afternoon I much prefer to be on track at the end of the day pounding out laps with little or no traffic giving me time to focus on what I want to work on without having to be distracted with getting out of or into my student's car immediately before or after my session. YMMV
That being said most incidents don't just happen out of the blue, and there is typically some sort of buildup of minor mistakes that if kept in check keep the big ones from happening. In my experience telling the student that the car just saved them (PSM intervention that they didn't detect/feel) helps reinforce why they need to listen to me even more. Also, I've always talked about what to do when things start to go wrong in the classroom session to try and reinforce how to save themselves and their car, some listen and some don't but we go over it every time.
Regarding the last session incident topic, since I'm typically giving up my first session of the day teaching the classroom session and generally another session sometime during the early afternoon I much prefer to be on track at the end of the day pounding out laps with little or no traffic giving me time to focus on what I want to work on without having to be distracted with getting out of or into my student's car immediately before or after my session. YMMV
Last edited by Mike Roblin; 06-07-2021 at 05:32 PM.
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Tedster (06-16-2021)
06-07-2021, 10:14 PM
#21
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
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So many instructors here with good will. I wish my experiences were similar.
1st instructor: went two sessions with him, spinning twice in the second. Apparently tire temperature is a thing, and newbie here didn't know about. Third session he gave me a solo sticker. No matter how much I refused and said I wasn't comfortable going by myself, he said he I was doing great and off he went to the track. I asked for another instructor, no one available. Turns out he was instructing for free time and because I was in the same group as he (I was sharing the car), he got antsy to go on his own.
2nd instructor: I explained how much I've driven and what I'd like to learn -be safe and not be the cause of an accident would be an awesome goal. He went the warm up lap grabbing the steering wheel to shown me the lines. One hot lap and he said I was good to go on my own, stop so I can get my car ready.
By this time I realized that if I wanted to keep doing this, I would need professional instruction. I went to PSDS, basic and intermediate courses back to back. Did RSR about 5 times since.
3rd instructor, required as I've never been to The circuit. Didn't show for my first session. One of the organizers went with me but I could not hear anything with the stupid open window policy. Guy showed up for the second session. First thing he said was: I don't believe in trail braking (!) don't do it. I explained that at the PSDS they really insisted on that and by now it may just happen. He doesn't say a word during the session (by then we had mics) and gave me 30 sec feedback afterwards because he had another driver to instruct. After 3 sessions he solo me, although I said I'd like more time to learn how to go quicker. No tips on where to put your car for optimal apex, what not to do etc. I told my wife's instructor how frustrated I was with that, and she invited me to go with her on her race car and later went with me. 20 mins with her were better than the full day with the prior guy. Next day this guy asks how I was doing, and invited himself to go for a session. At the end he complemented how well I was doing. Not thanks to him.
Not always a bad experience. At another new track, new instructor. Got a racer that gave me proper instructions and in 2 sessions I was comfortable to go on my own. My wife also was very fortunate with her instructors
My point is, there's everything. Most are altruistic and do it to help others without much in trade. Others not. Do not accept a solo if you are not ok with it. If the chemistry is not there, stop and reconfigure. Consider paid instruction, it's really helpful as our HPDE don't have skid pad training. It saved me a couple of times.
I bow my hat to the good instructors out there. You don't see people risking their lives for others amusement for so little. Dealing some nasty personalities without any tangible compensation (for some). I understand the OP point of view. Also, the archaic PCA rules are not helping keeping the track any safer, vis-a-vis open window policy among others.
1st instructor: went two sessions with him, spinning twice in the second. Apparently tire temperature is a thing, and newbie here didn't know about. Third session he gave me a solo sticker. No matter how much I refused and said I wasn't comfortable going by myself, he said he I was doing great and off he went to the track. I asked for another instructor, no one available. Turns out he was instructing for free time and because I was in the same group as he (I was sharing the car), he got antsy to go on his own.
2nd instructor: I explained how much I've driven and what I'd like to learn -be safe and not be the cause of an accident would be an awesome goal. He went the warm up lap grabbing the steering wheel to shown me the lines. One hot lap and he said I was good to go on my own, stop so I can get my car ready.
By this time I realized that if I wanted to keep doing this, I would need professional instruction. I went to PSDS, basic and intermediate courses back to back. Did RSR about 5 times since.
3rd instructor, required as I've never been to The circuit. Didn't show for my first session. One of the organizers went with me but I could not hear anything with the stupid open window policy. Guy showed up for the second session. First thing he said was: I don't believe in trail braking (!) don't do it. I explained that at the PSDS they really insisted on that and by now it may just happen. He doesn't say a word during the session (by then we had mics) and gave me 30 sec feedback afterwards because he had another driver to instruct. After 3 sessions he solo me, although I said I'd like more time to learn how to go quicker. No tips on where to put your car for optimal apex, what not to do etc. I told my wife's instructor how frustrated I was with that, and she invited me to go with her on her race car and later went with me. 20 mins with her were better than the full day with the prior guy. Next day this guy asks how I was doing, and invited himself to go for a session. At the end he complemented how well I was doing. Not thanks to him.
Not always a bad experience. At another new track, new instructor. Got a racer that gave me proper instructions and in 2 sessions I was comfortable to go on my own. My wife also was very fortunate with her instructors
My point is, there's everything. Most are altruistic and do it to help others without much in trade. Others not. Do not accept a solo if you are not ok with it. If the chemistry is not there, stop and reconfigure. Consider paid instruction, it's really helpful as our HPDE don't have skid pad training. It saved me a couple of times.
I bow my hat to the good instructors out there. You don't see people risking their lives for others amusement for so little. Dealing some nasty personalities without any tangible compensation (for some). I understand the OP point of view. Also, the archaic PCA rules are not helping keeping the track any safer, vis-a-vis open window policy among others.
Last edited by John Mclane; 06-07-2021 at 10:17 PM.
06-08-2021, 12:16 AM
#22
Three Wheelin'
@John Mclane - let us know which club you had those poor instructor experiences. Sounds pretty bad. I'm sure some readers here would like to be sure to avoid that club.
06-08-2021, 12:17 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
06-08-2021, 12:21 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
One way to keep instructing is only accept hot, younger lady students in slower cars with airbags, nannies and ABS
06-08-2021, 12:30 AM
#25
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by stownsen914
@John Mclane - let us know which club you had those poor instructor experiences. Sounds pretty bad. I'm sure some readers here would like to be sure to avoid that club.
06-08-2021, 08:33 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by John Mclane
I didn't mention on the open because I don't feel it's fair with the majority of the instructors. I'm also quite certain this happens in other chapters and professions. My lesson learned is that you may need to pay to play and if you feel it's not right to be out there on your own, don't be.
06-08-2021, 08:50 AM
#27
Rennlist Member
06-08-2021, 08:52 AM
#28
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I think John McLane’s experience is not isolated. As the instructor crunch continues, it may well get worse.
There are thousands of marque club programs, for-profit, solo open track, track-run, OEM and professional driving schools and experiences operating events every weekend and now commonly, during the week.
While it’s important that the leading programs continue their best practices, as well
as self-auditing their own instructor’s performance by collecting student evaluations EVERY event, it’s most important to realize that NOTHING should be taken for granted. John’s experience is not isolated.
After being in the car for decades, selling my race prep business and starting one of the very first “paid instruction” businesses back in 2007, structured around the emerging technology to objectively measure what a driver was doing, a lot of friends and fellow instructors scoffed at the idea you would, or even could, charge for such a thing. Fifteen years later, this is common, and many drivers take advantage of this.
The cars, the people and the culture has changed over the last three and a half decades. Some time ago, there seemed to be a better balance between “service delivery obligations” in exchange for track time among the instructor corps. Now, increasing reticence by reasonable instructors and the proliferation of events has made instructor recruitment an event-to-event challenge.
That said, I’ve never seen a greater commitment by some groups, especially some chapters of the BMWCCA and regions of the PCA, to INVEST in better training for their instructors. It’s awesome!
I admire the DE culture and the in-car instruction model, but the variation in instructor quality and commitment, as well as material delivery, has driven my own very, very successful business for fifteen years…
There are thousands of marque club programs, for-profit, solo open track, track-run, OEM and professional driving schools and experiences operating events every weekend and now commonly, during the week.
While it’s important that the leading programs continue their best practices, as well
as self-auditing their own instructor’s performance by collecting student evaluations EVERY event, it’s most important to realize that NOTHING should be taken for granted. John’s experience is not isolated.
After being in the car for decades, selling my race prep business and starting one of the very first “paid instruction” businesses back in 2007, structured around the emerging technology to objectively measure what a driver was doing, a lot of friends and fellow instructors scoffed at the idea you would, or even could, charge for such a thing. Fifteen years later, this is common, and many drivers take advantage of this.
The cars, the people and the culture has changed over the last three and a half decades. Some time ago, there seemed to be a better balance between “service delivery obligations” in exchange for track time among the instructor corps. Now, increasing reticence by reasonable instructors and the proliferation of events has made instructor recruitment an event-to-event challenge.
That said, I’ve never seen a greater commitment by some groups, especially some chapters of the BMWCCA and regions of the PCA, to INVEST in better training for their instructors. It’s awesome!
I admire the DE culture and the in-car instruction model, but the variation in instructor quality and commitment, as well as material delivery, has driven my own very, very successful business for fifteen years…
Last edited by ProCoach; 06-08-2021 at 08:56 AM.
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06-08-2021, 08:52 AM
#29
Rennlist Member
[b]
Well, if not public, at the very least did you go to the Chief Instructor of the group to explain the issues? It really frosts me that so many PCA Instructors can't wait to bail and send inexperienced people out alone. I have never "signed someone off" to solo except in cases where I was sent out as a solo check-out ride and even then 50% didn't make the cut. Had it happen to me once at my 1st DE with a region known for being strict and I flat out refused (one day at WGI in a new 997S and I was ready to solo??). May be why I was so adamant about it when I became an instructor..
Originally Posted by J[/b
ohn Mclane;17478660]I didn't mention on the open because I don't feel it's fair with the majority of the instructors. I'm also quite certain this happens in other chapters and professions. My lesson learned is that you may need to pay to play and if you feel it's not right to be out there on your own, don't be.
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06-08-2021, 09:15 AM
#30
Rennlist Member
I dont know what the solution is, but clubs/organizers are going to need to get creative in terms of how they address this. I think lead/follow with some sort of car to car communication is a viable option, but not without its own set of challenges.