View Poll Results: Which passing rules are better?
Current
59
85.51%
Proposed
10
14.49%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll
PCA passing rules
08-07-2017, 02:00 PM
#121
Anjin San
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Until someone hits you. Or you hit someone. Can't be perfect all the time. Then what? Oh right, you look in the rule book to assign blame for the incident. Hmmmm.
You are clear that this is racing and not a defensive driving exercise right? I mean racing is inherently not defensive and very aggressive in general.
It's not arrogance it's experience.
And if everything is so common sense then why have a rule book at all right? That premise is just foolish. Your "common sense" isn't necessarily the same as someone else's particularly if there is a wide experience gap.
Your insults indicate you don't have a logical rebuttal BTW.
Why would the same rules that other series run harm PCA?
It seems no one has an answer to that question.
And the rules are messed with annually. Sometimes twice a year so there's that.
You are clear that this is racing and not a defensive driving exercise right? I mean racing is inherently not defensive and very aggressive in general.
It's not arrogance it's experience.
And if everything is so common sense then why have a rule book at all right? That premise is just foolish. Your "common sense" isn't necessarily the same as someone else's particularly if there is a wide experience gap.
Your insults indicate you don't have a logical rebuttal BTW.
Why would the same rules that other series run harm PCA?
It seems no one has an answer to that question.
And the rules are messed with annually. Sometimes twice a year so there's that.
I have done both. Hit somebody and got hit. I learned a long time ago, the 1980's, that blame is for insurance companies. It happened, take responsibility, learn from the thing, and move on. Don't be that gentleman racer that causes an accident or whose whining gets your head flushed down the toilet at the track. You do not get paid to race so act accordingly. I am sorry if my observations are perceived as insults. But if the Sparco boot fits......
I think we need a new Golden Rule:
Donot drive like a Dick.
It does not mean do not be aggressive, just do not drive like a Dick. Keep it so simple that the Chairman of the Board can understand it. Have fun racing. Do not hit somebody and do things that puts yourself in harms way.
OK?
08-07-2017, 02:58 PM
#122
The Penguin King
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Here's HRS's rule:
PASSING: The responsibility for a clean pass rests with both drivers. It is the responsibility of the passer to make a clean pass and responsibility of the passee to maintain a predictable line.
and here's SVRA:
PASSING The responsibility for a clean pass rests with both drivers. Primary responsibility is with the overtaking car. Corner stations will advise slower cars with a blue/yellow flag (passing flag.) Watch your mirrors. If practical, the overtaken driver should clearly indicate to the overtaking driver on which side the pass should be made while maintaining a predictable racing line.
SCCA:
A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track.
B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters.
C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room. Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.
D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7.
Every other series expressly indicates that both drivers share responsibility in a passing situation. Except PCA.
PASSING: The responsibility for a clean pass rests with both drivers. It is the responsibility of the passer to make a clean pass and responsibility of the passee to maintain a predictable line.
and here's SVRA:
PASSING The responsibility for a clean pass rests with both drivers. Primary responsibility is with the overtaking car. Corner stations will advise slower cars with a blue/yellow flag (passing flag.) Watch your mirrors. If practical, the overtaken driver should clearly indicate to the overtaking driver on which side the pass should be made while maintaining a predictable racing line.
SCCA:
A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track.
B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters.
C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room. Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.
D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7.
Every other series expressly indicates that both drivers share responsibility in a passing situation. Except PCA.
25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking. A driver who does not watch his/her mirrors or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be penalized. The act of passing is initiated when the trailing car’s (Car A) front bumper overlaps with the lead car’s (Car B) rear bumper. The act of passing is complete when Car A’s rear bumper is ahead of Car B’s front bumper. “NO PASSING” means a pass cannot even be initiated. Any overlap in a NO PASSING area is considered illegal.
08-07-2017, 03:00 PM
#123
Three Wheelin'
appoint directors and leaders who do what they think is best for the group and live with it. pca is a no-contact club. none. not a little, not at all. its not right or wrong, its just the rules of the club. and to create heavy deterrent against contact, they desire to impose guilt on someone who is responsible. and they come up with some rules to adjudicate it post fact. no rule will be perfect. i like the current set of rules as the ambiguity works entirely against the person pushing the issue.
i never zip around the track thinking of rules.. my general mentality, rules or otherwise is to avoid contact, avoid damage, injury, wasting monies fixing body work just to get the car back to where it was just before the contact. contact sucks. its further complicated by having such a diverse range of laptimes ina run group. and tthere too is the beauty of pca. not too many places can you have awesome caymans running with cups running with 911s from the 1990s.
i dont want to damage my own car, first or second place, irrelevant. damage or injury, at my age, when i'm just trying to have fun, is not worth contact.
the OP should also know that a 13 isn't a badge of dishonor , its not a criminal conviction. its like a yellow card in soccer. get two of them, you're out. but sometimes yellows happen.
i never zip around the track thinking of rules.. my general mentality, rules or otherwise is to avoid contact, avoid damage, injury, wasting monies fixing body work just to get the car back to where it was just before the contact. contact sucks. its further complicated by having such a diverse range of laptimes ina run group. and tthere too is the beauty of pca. not too many places can you have awesome caymans running with cups running with 911s from the 1990s.
i dont want to damage my own car, first or second place, irrelevant. damage or injury, at my age, when i'm just trying to have fun, is not worth contact.
the OP should also know that a 13 isn't a badge of dishonor , its not a criminal conviction. its like a yellow card in soccer. get two of them, you're out. but sometimes yellows happen.
08-07-2017, 03:48 PM
#124
Perfect Angel
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Originally Posted by MSR Racer
Regardless how the rules are written, for a faster car passing a lapped car, the move by the orange Boxster on the white car is inexcusable!!
It is worth noting that for all the talk of "common sense" etc we have to remember that PCA CR is no longer a handful of buddies who are all on the same page. We are thousands now. And for every 10 racers 8 will read the existing rule and understand all that it implies. The other two may not. Not everyone in PCA CR is starting from the same point today. To assume that everyone with a PCA license is of the same mind is just silly and a departure from anything like reality.
So what's the point of obstinance? Why let a rookie or novice learn the hard way at someone else's expense?
To coach's point: how it should be vs how it is or how it was vs how it is.
Last edited by Streak; 08-07-2017 at 04:20 PM.
08-07-2017, 03:53 PM
#125
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NASA:
25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking. A driver who does not watch his/her mirrors or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be penalized. The act of passing is initiated when the trailing car’s (Car A) front bumper overlaps with the lead car’s (Car B) rear bumper. The act of passing is complete when Car A’s rear bumper is ahead of Car B’s front bumper. “NO PASSING” means a pass cannot even be initiated. Any overlap in a NO PASSING area is considered illegal.
25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking. A driver who does not watch his/her mirrors or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be penalized. The act of passing is initiated when the trailing car’s (Car A) front bumper overlaps with the lead car’s (Car B) rear bumper. The act of passing is complete when Car A’s rear bumper is ahead of Car B’s front bumper. “NO PASSING” means a pass cannot even be initiated. Any overlap in a NO PASSING area is considered illegal.
I like Steve's "yellow card" analogy. First time I got a 13/13, I was mad, then felt like crap. But I didn't get a second one until much later, thus didn't trigger the suspension.
Hunt, I like that! "Coach's pout..."
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08-07-2017, 04:27 PM
#126
Perfect Angel
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Originally Posted by FGL28
Dude,
I have done both. Hit somebody and got hit. I learned a long time ago, the 1980's, that blame is for insurance companies. It happened, take responsibility, learn from the thing, and move on. Don't be that gentleman racer that causes an accident or whose whining gets your head flushed down the toilet at the track. You do not get paid to race so act accordingly. I am sorry if my observations are perceived as insults. But if the Sparco boot fits......
I think we need a new Golden Rule:
Donot drive like a Dick.
It does not mean do not be aggressive, just do not drive like a Dick. Keep it so simple that the Chairman of the Board can understand it. Have fun racing. Do not hit somebody and do things that puts yourself in harms way.
OK?
I have done both. Hit somebody and got hit. I learned a long time ago, the 1980's, that blame is for insurance companies. It happened, take responsibility, learn from the thing, and move on. Don't be that gentleman racer that causes an accident or whose whining gets your head flushed down the toilet at the track. You do not get paid to race so act accordingly. I am sorry if my observations are perceived as insults. But if the Sparco boot fits......
I think we need a new Golden Rule:
Donot drive like a Dick.
It does not mean do not be aggressive, just do not drive like a Dick. Keep it so simple that the Chairman of the Board can understand it. Have fun racing. Do not hit somebody and do things that puts yourself in harms way.
OK?
Newsflash: there are dicks on the track.
Other newsflash: 13/13 rules discourage people from driving like dicks. Without a way to assign blame and penalize bad driving what recourse besides swirlies would PCA have.
Seriously man. The whole rule book in your eyes should consist of "don't be a dick?" So how do you define "dick?" You might need to put together a pamphlet or something for everyone to refer to with definitions and examples of what a Dick is and when you are being one and when you get the swirlie.
Some might call that a rule book
And still no valid argument outlining how PCA and it's racers would be harmed by adding a bit more clarification to the existing rule but so much resistance! Hmmm.
08-07-2017, 04:33 PM
#128
Rennlist Member
Per Peter's comment, and given the recent discussion on these threads, I went to the rookie orientation meeting at the Mosport race. It was a good refresher and most of the discussion centered on practical common sense decision making, values, respect for your competitor, leaving room, and measured risk taking.
Of course, red mist can erase all those considerations. But experience, emotional regulation, and patience can temper those impulses.
What the OP doesn't have is experience in the PCA context. And I think if he sticks with it post 13 and banks some clean races... well, things will look different in retrospect.
You can't regulate every single behaviour and situation but I would welcome more clarity - and even brevity - for the PCA passing rules. Some good suggestions here that improve the current wording - it can only help!
Of course, red mist can erase all those considerations. But experience, emotional regulation, and patience can temper those impulses.
What the OP doesn't have is experience in the PCA context. And I think if he sticks with it post 13 and banks some clean races... well, things will look different in retrospect.
You can't regulate every single behaviour and situation but I would welcome more clarity - and even brevity - for the PCA passing rules. Some good suggestions here that improve the current wording - it can only help!
08-07-2017, 05:45 PM
#129
Addict
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I have video of someone chopping across the bow of a driver (attempt on the inside of a left hand corner), but the driver backed out of it and put 2 wheels in the dirt to avoid contact. The trailing driver understood that it was a risky maneuver (rookie by the way who backed out and veteran who chopped). If contact would have happened however, the racing room (part 3 of the rules) could have been invoked because the driver does not own the corner (part 2 of the rule).
We'll never know if that veteran driver did it on purpose to defend or was simply unaware of an out of class car about to pass, but the trailing rookie driver had (part 1) of the rule book in mind.
My reference to the NASA 3/4 width rule is that it is literally legal to push someone 2 wheels off in order to prohibit the pass. No where in PCA does that exist.
08-07-2017, 06:42 PM
#130
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by jdistefa
Per Peter's comment, and given the recent discussion on these threads, I went to the rookie orientation meeting at the Mosport race. It was a good refresher and most of the discussion centered on practical common sense decision making, values, respect for your competitor, leaving room, and measured risk taking.
Of course, red mist can erase all those considerations. But experience, emotional regulation, and patience can temper those impulses.
What the OP doesn't have is experience in the PCA context. And I think if he sticks with it post 13 and banks some clean races... well, things will look different in retrospect.
You can't regulate every single behaviour and situation but I would welcome more clarity - and even brevity - for the PCA passing rules. Some good suggestions here that improve the current wording - it can only help!
Of course, red mist can erase all those considerations. But experience, emotional regulation, and patience can temper those impulses.
What the OP doesn't have is experience in the PCA context. And I think if he sticks with it post 13 and banks some clean races... well, things will look different in retrospect.
You can't regulate every single behaviour and situation but I would welcome more clarity - and even brevity - for the PCA passing rules. Some good suggestions here that improve the current wording - it can only help!
08-07-2017, 06:51 PM
#131
Perfect Angel
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Originally Posted by CFGT3
Please provide the wording in PCA rules where it specifically says the Chop is not against the rules?
I have video of someone chopping across the bow of a driver (attempt on the inside of a left hand corner), but the driver backed out of it and put 2 wheels in the dirt to avoid contact. The trailing driver understood that it was a risky maneuver (rookie by the way who backed out and veteran who chopped). If contact would have happened however, the racing room (part 3 of the rules) could have been invoked because the driver does not own the corner (part 2 of the rule).
We'll never know if that veteran driver did it on purpose to defend or was simply unaware of an out of class car about to pass, but the trailing rookie driver had (part 1) of the rule book in mind.
My reference to the NASA 3/4 width rule is that it is literally legal to push someone 2 wheels off in order to prohibit the pass. No where in PCA does that exist.
I have video of someone chopping across the bow of a driver (attempt on the inside of a left hand corner), but the driver backed out of it and put 2 wheels in the dirt to avoid contact. The trailing driver understood that it was a risky maneuver (rookie by the way who backed out and veteran who chopped). If contact would have happened however, the racing room (part 3 of the rules) could have been invoked because the driver does not own the corner (part 2 of the rule).
We'll never know if that veteran driver did it on purpose to defend or was simply unaware of an out of class car about to pass, but the trailing rookie driver had (part 1) of the rule book in mind.
My reference to the NASA 3/4 width rule is that it is literally legal to push someone 2 wheels off in order to prohibit the pass. No where in PCA does that exist.
The chop is legal and used often in PCA. That's why you have video of it as do I and everyone else.
Might be a good idea to define racing room lest a person who races with NASA and PCA assumes that 3/4 of a car is good for PCA.
And for NASA GTS there is a different definition: one car plus 6"
08-07-2017, 07:29 PM
#133
Addict
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Yes it is. The second sentence of the rule. The lead car at turn in can go to the apex regardless of whether another car is there. The passing car must go off track or back out.
The chop is legal and used often in PCA. That's why you have video of it as do I and everyone else.
Might be a good idea to define racing room lest a person who races with NASA and PCA assumes that 3/4 of a car is good for PCA.
And for NASA GTS there is a different definition: one car plus 6"
The chop is legal and used often in PCA. That's why you have video of it as do I and everyone else.
Might be a good idea to define racing room lest a person who races with NASA and PCA assumes that 3/4 of a car is good for PCA.
And for NASA GTS there is a different definition: one car plus 6"
08-07-2017, 07:29 PM
#134
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by jdistefa
I dig those f*cking pencils.
