View Poll Results: Which passing rules are better?
Current
59
85.51%
Proposed
10
14.49%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll
PCA passing rules
08-07-2017, 12:31 AM
#106
#1 Trump promised fewer rules and regs.
#2 Rules are just as likely to support what a person can do poorly and get away with than promote responsible behavior.
#3 Gentleman do not always prefer blondes, need everything spelled out or litigate unnecessarily.
Pg3 PCA CRR
DRIVER REQUIREMENTS
1. Conduct that is inappropriate to the intent and spirit of the PCA Club Racing Program jeopardizes safety or results in dangerous or damaging situations will not be tolerated. (emphasis added)
#2 Rules are just as likely to support what a person can do poorly and get away with than promote responsible behavior.
#3 Gentleman do not always prefer blondes, need everything spelled out or litigate unnecessarily.
Pg3 PCA CRR
DRIVER REQUIREMENTS
1. Conduct that is inappropriate to the intent and spirit of the PCA Club Racing Program jeopardizes safety or results in dangerous or damaging situations will not be tolerated. (emphasis added)
08-07-2017, 01:10 AM
#107
Rennlist Member
I admire how much free time you guys have to debate this stuff. Hunt, you're correct....a couple more sentences of clarification certainly couldn't hurt.
08-07-2017, 08:14 AM
#108
...until they don't and decide to use it as a weapon. My first 13 was received at LRP on my first ever PCA race because an experienced racer used this weapon to deny me racing room into Turn 1 with 3/4 overlap. And this was after he came to me in the paddock ahead of the race, introduced himself, and we shook hands on an agreement to always leave each other racing room if ANY overlap was established. He had seen our qualifying times and correctly assumed that we would be racing each other for P3. I appreciated his approach very much. Before the contact we even exchanged positions at least couple of times according to our "handshake" agreement by leaving each other room -- then when I tried to use it into Turn 1, sorry no room this time. Of course, the stewards decided it was my fault since there was no 100% overlap at turn-in, so according to Rule 2 he "had" the corner that according to the same rule he doesn't "own" (!?) and according to Rule 3 "everyone must leave racing room" (!?). In retrospect, I jot it down as simple rookie naivete on my part. I was just "outsmarted".
So you see why this vagueness and "gentlemen just figure it out" thing could become a bit of a problem.
So you see why this vagueness and "gentlemen just figure it out" thing could become a bit of a problem.
Secondly, your first incident at LRP that resulted in the first 13 was not minor damage. As you know, the driver you made contact with is a good buddy of mine so I have first hand knowledge of the damage. The rocker and the rear of the door opening on the passenger side was crushed in 2 inches. I believe PCA was going to make it a rub out until they came and observed the damage a second time and saw that it was more than a door dent. The repair bill from that incident exceeds $5K so I believe the 13 was warranted in that incident.
Lastly, I can see why you thought taking that pass was a 'must do' situation. When we decide we must do it, reason leaves the decision matrix. I could compile a 20 minute video of all the times this exact situation has happened to me. A slower car being passed in what looks to be a clear pass and then I get squeezed. The prudent thing to do was to simply back out of the pass. At WGI this year it happened to me 3 times. Each time it happened, I backed out of the pass by standing on the brakes and had another go. In two of those, I was passed by another SPB (rightly so) who was behind me and simply could stay in the gas. That's racing.
Lastly, I can see why you thought taking that pass was a 'must do' situation. When we decide we must do it, reason leaves the decision matrix. I could compile a 20 minute video of all the times this exact situation has happened to me. A slower car being passed in what looks to be a clear pass and then I get squeezed. The prudent thing to do was to simply back out of the pass. At WGI this year it happened to me 3 times. Each time it happened, I backed out of the pass by standing on the brakes and had another go. In two of those, I was passed by another SPB (rightly so) who was behind me and simply could stay in the gas. That's racing.
Originally Posted by cmac View Post
I remember at LRP you had some strong opinions on passing rules during the rookie orientation class and even tried to have a short debate with the steward who was presenting about just this sort of pass...
I remember at LRP you had some strong opinions on passing rules during the rookie orientation class and even tried to have a short debate with the steward who was presenting about just this sort of pass...
I, too, was a Rookie at LRP, and I raced in a 924/SP2 car with the OP and what I figured out early on was that he was racing to win, and he was good, but the trouble is that PCA rules didn't change his idea of what racing should be because he passed me in the Left Hander rather than wait until I hit No Name Straight. As a result I had to maintain my lift thru the corner and lose huge momentum plus drive offline to the right to leave space. Now by that point I was being lapped by the pack and well aware of being a "speed bump", but it was my very first race and everyone had always told me "stick to the line". In this case had I stuck to the line, contact would have occurred for sure, but I saw what was happening and left room
08-07-2017, 08:40 AM
#109
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
**** the blame. **** the rules. If you get into an accident, you let somebody hit you. That's both on you as well as the idiot that hit you. Unless you're racing F1 or something similarly dispensable, just stfu and swallow whatever you tried to bite.
If you can't walk away from contact thinking "**** happens," go back to karting.
If you can't walk away from contact thinking "**** happens," go back to karting.
Really?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ignorance
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ignorance
You should probably add some language to clarify your rule so it's less confusing.
08-07-2017, 10:05 AM
#110
Rennlist Member
I have run over 50 races without hitting anyone or anything. The original poster has hit 2 cars in 3 races. The passing rules are fine and to me are clear. As a rookie your job is to run a clean race and blend in to the family of racers. If that means you have to give up a position, so be it. The original poster has to realize he is joining the other racers and not the other way around.
08-07-2017, 10:57 AM
#111
Are there two conversations going on here? The OP is suggesting a change in the rules AND streak/Hunt is suggesting a clarification of the existing rules?
Or are you both proposing a rule change silicate to SCCA and other clubs re shared responsibility ?
Or are you both proposing a rule change silicate to SCCA and other clubs re shared responsibility ?
08-07-2017, 11:25 AM
#112
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,991
Received 3,101 Likes
on
1,810 Posts
I have run over 50 races without hitting anyone or anything. The original poster has hit 2 cars in 3 races. The passing rules are fine and to me are clear. As a rookie your job is to run a clean race and blend in to the family of racers. If that means you have to give up a position, so be it. The original poster has to realize he is joining the other racers and not the other way around.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
08-07-2017, 12:22 PM
#113
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Looking back over years of CRN issues it would seem the passing rule is discussed with regularity signifying that the rule is unclear. Why else would there need to be article after article after article of clarification?
Maybe a collection of those articles could be packaged and handed to the rookies. Considering a rookie probably doesn't have years of back issues.
Think of it this way: if you are building a car from scratch do you remember how tall, wide and where the numbers go? Of course not. You refer back to the rule book.
Just a thought.
Maybe a collection of those articles could be packaged and handed to the rookies. Considering a rookie probably doesn't have years of back issues.
Think of it this way: if you are building a car from scratch do you remember how tall, wide and where the numbers go? Of course not. You refer back to the rule book.
Just a thought.
08-07-2017, 12:27 PM
#114
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Dr911
Are there two conversations going on here? The OP is suggesting a change in the rules AND streak/Hunt is suggesting a clarification of the existing rules?
Or are you both proposing a rule change silicate to SCCA and other clubs re shared responsibility ?
Or are you both proposing a rule change silicate to SCCA and other clubs re shared responsibility ?
BTW at a recent race "racing room" was defined as half the track. In other words on a 50 foot wide track if a car crossed over the center line he was guilty of not leaving racing room. Clearly that's absurd as two cars can easily occupy 25 or less side by side. But that definition was made up on the spot in the paddock by an official to assign a 13. Subsequently over turned later that day.
So my goal is to clarify and define and answer common questions. According to some here if you ask a question about a rule you should find someplace else to race. Why not answer those questions instead?
Not a difficult concept but apparently it is for some
Last edited by Streak; 08-07-2017 at 12:49 PM.
08-07-2017, 12:34 PM
#115
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by ProCoach
Hmmmm.
08-07-2017, 12:58 PM
#117
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,991
Received 3,101 Likes
on
1,810 Posts
This and the other are GREAT threads, because this topic (like any in high performance driving/racing) is an onion. You've got to peel back layers to get to the core. And I appreciate your point of view, Hunt.
I believe clarification could help, but as pointed out, even the explanation of the existing rule varies from Region to Region, Zone to Zone.
I've attended more than a dozen Rookie Orientation meetings simply so that I can hear what and how the stewards and the leaders of Club Racing outline as the goal.
It's been entertaining and educational, and not a little murky sometimes...
08-07-2017, 01:00 PM
#118
Maybe a distinction in the rules between two types of pass, one where a faster car that has a very high rate of closing speed on a car out of class and one where cars are actually racing each other, the later Being where racing room and overlap make sense.
08-07-2017, 01:03 PM
#119
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by z06801
Maybe a distinction in the rules between two types of pass, one where a faster car that has a very high rate of closing speed on a car out of class and one where cars are actually racing each other, the later Being where racing room and overlap make sense.
