Coochas

I'm just going to assume that the OP is a masochist posting this thread after the recent epic thread.

Dude have a slice of humble pie. Nobody can be right 100% of the time. Admitting mistakes is part of being a man.

Streak

If you all could get past that the OP draws breath on this Earth we might have an actual discussion about the passing rule. A discussion that has been going on for a looooooong time.

When compared to similar series the brevity of PCA's rule only breeds confusion and inconsistent enforcement.

C-gt3

when i enter pca racing, i promise not to hit anybody on purpose.
in fact, i will know that if i hit anybody, it will be my fault.
i will own it. and if somebody hits me, it might be my fault too!
the chop block is a personal matter though yes between drivers out in the pits or parking lot?
pca seems like the place to be for weekend fun without worrying about the weekend warrior striving for imsa or wpc? yes?

hf1

If it has been like the "discussion" in this thread, then it's no surprise. Barely a couple of relevant posts buried in four pages of drama and innuendo.

tvr-4

I think people would be open to a debate if it didnt feel like the OP is doing it to build the case on why he is right, when experienced racers are telling him he screwed up and should just own it.

If he didnt like the rule in the first place, why not start a thread before ever getting into a PCA racing series? Now, any perspective the OP has will be muddied by the fact that it appears that he is still trying to prove that the rules are at fault for his 13/13.

I dont have a horse in this race, but thats what it looks like to me.

PS, suggest to the OP and anyone thats taking an issue with the rules to watch some race footage from the guys that both understand the interpretation of the rules AND use it with good judgement and in the spirit it was written (one name that comes to mind in Van Svenson - dont know the guy, but from watching his videos, it seems to me like he embodies the spirit of PCA club racing).

Dr911

OP your proposed rules could work if the racer attempting the pass would be required to HONK an air horn twice to alert the car ahead that there is now a 1mm overlap. Then HONK twice if there is no longer an overlap. Etc etc.

As a racer you don't need to be told that nothing is static on track. We've all been there: 3/10ths of a second can portal you into a different universe.

(I've witnessed honking horns on track and they are not the best example of pretty trackside manners.)

In Gentlewomen's / Gentlemen's club racing, the current protocol withstands the test of The Golden Rule.

If it were me in your position, being highly dissatisfied with the rules, I'd consider finding a different club to race with.

And I'f try to keep in mind that not a single human has eyes in the back of our heads.

ProCoach

THIS is exactly the way I went into racing, and I still think this way.

Great post, and a similar view I've heard from Sebring, Daytona and Le Mans winners!

Streak

Exactly my point. The PCA rule does not address this adequately. The other rules I posted from other gentleman racing series do address the shared responsibility. Why is it that PCA can't give the rule some more explanation? How many rookies expressed confusion in that other thread?

The chop is not a personal thing. The chop runs people off track and into walls. The chop is the rule being used as a weapon. The chop is overly aggressive and leads to contact. The other series address at what point the driver being passed must leave room vs dive to the apex. The PCA rule only establishes ownership of the corner at turn in and after that only the passing car can be at fault. The other series acknowledge that turn in could be hundreds of feet prior to contact and at the point of contact (barring a dive bomb which is also addressed) the overtaking car might have established the lead. PCA does not do that. The other series begin their passing instructions by assigning responsibility to both cars. PCA does not do that.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure in POC, PBOC. BMWCCA and NASA GTS there are racers and cars left alive at the end of a race weekend. The hysteria over this is absurd.

In fact the driver I've alluded to who flatly stated that he used the PCA rule like a weapon was banned from POC. It took 3 years of him bouncing off not only in class cars but out of class too. He literally never ran an entire weekend without contact or totally demolishing his car. In one weekend he had contact with 3 different cars. He never got a 13 for any incident involving another driver because of the way PCA's rule is written.

Now how is that common sense?

Common sense is the other series rules clearly and concisely explaining what actually happens on track. The ugly truth is that passing happens in corners! You may set someone up to out brake them and pass into the corner or maybe you get a run and pass them as you leave the corner. Regardless, some portion of the OSD or the entire pass happens in the corner. I know! Crazy! PCA rule compels the passer to tuck in behind the lead car irrespective of any overlap or risk being blamed for any contact at all. The other series address when racing room is earned and the car being passed must allow room to do so. That's common sense.

This isn't HPDE FFS.

hf1

Some good ideas there. Better yet, maybe mandate point-by's or ban passing altogether? As someone else astutely pointed out, if the passing car chose to forgo the pass, there'd be no incident!

Joking aside, if the passing car which used to be further back is so close to you that you are unsure if there is overlap, then just drive as if overlap was established and leave it racing room. I do it all the time. Not that hard.

I don't know what this means.

I'll take that into advisement and appreciate your advice. I'll make sure that you are the first to be notified about my decision.

Which is why mirrors are mandatory on track cars, and why DE students don't get promoted out of Green without knowing how to use them. And we're talking racing here.

ProCoach

And, the damage ratio per number of cars competing is quite high. Higher than other classes in PCA Club Racing.

In the end, it's still the loose nut behind the wheel that bears responsibility for this. There have been as many single-car as multi-car incidents, in my informal database over as season and a half.

In my opinion and observation, removing the strictures of the 13/13 rule has NOT made the GT4 CS Trophy East participants any less likely to have car to car contact.

If anything, there's been an uptick. People patch the cars together and go do it again... This has happened at EVERY GT4 CS Trophy East race I've attended.

I was in a large team area at the end of the first day at Watkins Glen and no fewer than three teams came by looking for radiators and other crash parts, some for more than one GT4 CS car under the tent.

Insane...

Streak

Jaysus! No one is advocating the removal of the 13/13 rule! Merely a clarification of the passing rule. Like the other clubs I posted that also have 13/13 rules.

Overlap needs to be addressed with respect to the 2nd sentence. Leave racing room needs to be the first sentence of the rule.



Tell me what is so objectionable in the rules I posted earlier.

Dr911

No need to get all huffy amigo.
Just offering personal opinion.
As an aside, please do not contact me to inform me of your plans. Ever.

Streak

The bottom line is this, enough racers found fault with the orange car with the caveat that the white car shared responsibility to suggest that reality is not always as black and white as PCA's rule suggests.

CCA

Sounds like proposed rule would have the responsibility fall almost completely on the lead car and none on the car attempting the pass.

Maybe a rules change to require all cars to have accident avoidance or side vehicle radar notifications systems . Get that passed, package an aftermarket system and make some $$ off those still willing to race in the series. Hey, that's not a bad idea!

ExMB

I don't know. Seems like a good idea. That way either knows where the other is going and can choose to attend/avoid the event.