good hands

In my experience driving aggression can often be equated to how much money and how many resources you have to repair/replace your car.

Streak

Nah, you're just wrong. Your reliance on common sense burdens only the driver with common sense and gives everyone else a pass on following or understanding the rules. The examples I posted have not a thing to do with the poll except to clearly demonstrate when a driver is not adhering to the rules or only part of the rule which is easy to do given the way it's written. And I was ahead at turn in so by PCA's rule the corner is mine but according to you I'm still doing something wrong.

And by your admission, it seems, you have not raced with PCA. Have you read the rules?

Here is SCCA's rule. Pretty good language about racing room and driver conduct:

6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct

A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track.

B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally defined as sufficient space on the

marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close

quarters.

C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room. Abrupt changes in direction that

impede or affect the path of another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as an effort

to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.

D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely.

The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the

overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another

car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7.

Here's the Camel GT rules on passing:



I'll say it again, every other racing series in North America has a clearer passing rule. Every one.

ProCoach

the_vetman

Well, that says a lot!

9114609048

You were not ahead at turn in, the car to your right was. In any case, the PCA rule does not state that a corner could be “owned”, therefore a driver can’t say it’s “mine”.

PCA CLUB RACING PASSING RULES
1. The driver attempting a pass has the responsibility to complete a clean pass.
2. The car ahead at turn in has the corner but does not “own” the corner.
3. Everyone must leave racing room.

In my opinion, what you did incorrectly was to get into that predicament to begin with. Opinion only, I did not mean to be pejorative. I feel that since the other drivers were not sanctioned, they must have adhered to the current rule.

I appreciate your posting the SCCA and IMSA rules. Comparing them to the PCA rules (above) proves how simple the PCA passing rule is. You told us you have been racing for ten years, so you must know the rules very well and could help other drivers who might not be a seasoned as you are.The SCCA and IMSA rules, while maybe a bit more complicated, still look good to me, they were easy for me to understand and follow. I was never warned, disqualified or otherwise penalized. As close as I ever came to being disqualified was after I won the Sebring 12 Hours of Endurance (overall). We had had many flat tires and lost body work, exposing part of our rear tires, which by the rules had to be covered. Brumos (Gregg -Busby) and Interscope (Ongais-Field-Haywood) race teams both went to the race steward after the race and tried to make a case why we should be disqualified. They did not succeed. The only other time I raced the Sebring 12hr (2nd overall), I did not have anyone get after me about rules, I just fell short of catching the winning #25 Factory BMW (Redman-Moffat-Stuck-Posey).

Please don’t take my comments so personally. Remember, you were asking for comment when you posted your video and I simply gave you my honest opinion. However, to reply by misquoting me, being dismissive and becoming sarcastic, isn’t the best way to debate.

I hope you can settle the rules issue and have success Club racing.

Best regards,

George Dyer


The duct tape did not hold...

Streak

In determining who was ahead at turn in I was speaking relative to the chopper not the guy on the inside. I was leaving room for the guy on the inside. But I see your point and I did back out and the chopper went on to dive for the apex and hit the other car.

That's the guy I worry about. The squeeze is less of a concern to me as it was a fairly unique circumstance than the repeated chopping because our rule says:

The car ahead at turn in has the corner but does not “own” the corner.

This one sentence contradicts itself. Enough people read "has" as "own" and drive accordingly.

That's my point. That's the chop example I post. I had been chopped repeatedly for 20 minutes so it wasn't impatience. The race was ending and I saw my opportunity. And I was ahead of him at turn in.

There is room for improvement in the wording. Simple is great until it's not.

Despite the occasional sarcasm I enjoyed the debate

3 pages to go!

Streak

Agreed. But I do think there is no harm in revising the rule to indicate some measure of overlap requires racing room be left by the overtaken driver. To my mind that ends speculation as to whether a bumper or fender to door or mirror to mirror is sufficient to earn racing room for both drivers. For those that need clarity it's there in black and white. The bigger we get the more variety of interpretations we'll see on track. I just see too many people using their position at turn in to justify a chop and very often they are found not at fault in an incident.

Defining overlap may also work in the reverse. Rather than dive bomb a corner to get a nose ahead at turn in to "claim" the corner a driver might achieve overlap instead with the knowledge that he/she can expect racing room to go thru the corner.

I agree that the culture of the club is important and the rules reflect that. I'm not trying to change that. But I don't think we need to be obstinate about the rules either. Things can and do change. Good or bad.

I'm just frustrated at what seems like a very simple solution in the interest of clarity for a problem I see often enough.

As committed as I am to 25 pages I've typed myself out on this except one more post to ask Anne how she really feels

Streak

How do you really feel?

Carrera51

I don't see why this is complicated. The bottom line and common factor we all share as racers in PCA, NASA, SCCA, etc, is that we are all paying to be there racing. None of us collect a check at the end of a race weekend. Therefore we should all be mindful of that before we put on our suit and hop in a car. At the end of the weekend, we all return to our day jobs.

I would like to see the language that one car "has" the corner changed and the rule to say that in the event of contact, the stewards will render a verdict after reviewing video from the incident.

If you have been going nose to tail for several corners or laps, the "I didn't know he was there" defense goes out the window. If another driver gets to your back bumper, he/she is going to attempt to pass you so be ready. The lead car should leave racing room in cases where there is overlap. I am not saying roll over and play dead by any means. You don't have to make the pass easy. On the flip side, the driver of the overtaking car needs to use his or her head as well. Don't attempt a low percentage pass and put your bumper into the other driver's door. You can race your competitors hard and close, and not trade paint. I think we all have done that over the years. I know I have. I've also watched a lot of you have some really good scraps on track and then talk about it over beers in the paddock. That's part of the fun.

the_vetman

You know, I was typing up a much longer response before deciding to abandon it. I'll keep that to myself for now.

I'll say this though: if you think changing the language in the rules (as you've been saying over and over again for years ) will magically change on-track behavior, you will be disappointed. You say other orgs have much better language in the rules. But have you raced, say, a SM in SCCA or NASA?? "Pinball machine" comes to mind. I'm not saying it's a pinball machine every race and every lap, but it is certainly much more pervasive. So how did the "better" language in SCCA, NASA, etc., prevent such incidents?? They did not, and do not.

I don't disagree with you that it wouldn't hurt to add slight clarity to the rules, but doing so really won't change anything in the end - I propose that smarter driving (by everyone) and cooler heads will.

You can obviously do whatever you want, but I'd suggest either formally proposing a rule change or dropping the subject. Bitching about it on rennlist for years and years won't change a thing. Just sayin'.

Streak

Yeah, I have proposed rules changes in the past and they never go anywhere so I may as well **** up a rope on that one. Don't even get a reply acknowledging my proposals were even received. I'm sure they are quite busy that time of year with other priorities.

I will say I raced for a number of years with NASA in the GTS class which is similar to our PCA rules with the 13/13 etc. Spec Miata isn't really apples to apples. As a rookie I found their ruleset for passing and the diagrams in the appendix to be terrifically educational.

Will it stop every single incident? Of course not and I never said it would. Would it help those new to PCA to interpret the rules? Yes.

mikew968

I passed around 50-75 cars in the race at Mid Ohio on Sunday. I passed inside, outside, in the corner, braking into the corner and tracking out. I take full responsibility for executing a safe pass. I attempt to judge the intent of the car/driver i am passing. If i think he will dive to the apex, I will back out of the pass. If I am passing a close competitor I must get pretty well beside them to gain the advantage. Race hard, race fast, race close, but go home in the same condition you arrived!!!!!

jdistefa

What page are we on now....?

winders

No matter how you slice it, passing requires the participation of at least 2 drivers. Both the driver making the pass and the driver being passed MUST be responsible for executing clean passes on the track. You, as the passer, could do everything perfectly and there still could be an incident if the driver being passed is not aware of his situation and what is going on around him.

Veloce Raptor

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