hf1

Then, pls correct me if I'm wrong, but judging from the above would it be safe to say that you believe that the rules, as they stand, expect (and should enforce) Scenario b (i.e. that the passed Car B "...does not own the corner. Everyone must leave racing room", that it must leave racing room for Car A, and that the two cars should co-exist side-by-side through the corner)? Thx.

mehoff

Oh buddy, the exact same scenario/argument I think every decent club racer has made when dealing with sub-par drivers that forget cars have mirrors.

I think the principal issue here is this: "Drivers must leave racing room" and "the passing driver is responsible for a safe over-taking" are in direct and absolute conflict with one another. POC has this issue too. During our racing clinic (and frankly all throughout the education process) it is hammered into your head that you must, at all times, LEAVE RACING ROOM NO MATTER WHAT. But that is not what is enforced. When evaluating 13/13, a late pass attempt, regardless of spacing/bumper coverage/etc is deemed at fault by the over-taking driver. I'd be fine with this, yet we still have the mandate that drivers must leave racing room. These policies do not jive. Is the lead driver permitted to use his car as a weapon, because diving for an apex regardless of track situation is just that? I've directly asked that question and been rebuffed.

Again, I'm fine with the current enforcement of the rules, but let's be clear to up and coming drivers so we can avoid this exact scenario time and time again. Drivers do not need to leave racing room; they can use the 3,000 car as a weapon to discourage over-taking and as "advanced blocking". I'll posit, like my encounters, this only happens with good drivers tangling with sub-par drivers in higher classes. This is the only time I've encountered it......and what makes it so infuriated is the hours of other great racing when dealing with good drivers. I've been on the giving and receiving end of stupid/overly aggressive moves many times. A good racer knows what's happening around them and knows when to open the wheel a bit. This has happened every time I've attempted or been passed, with the sole exception of 2 times (guess which ones).

Basically I think it's time to be honest and manage expectations for club racers. You do not have to leave room; if the car behind you isn't at your door feel free cut off their nose, collect damage to your car and a 13/13 for the other driver.

LuigiVampa

The problem I have with your question is that I don't think it is a question. It is two potential outcomes to one situation. That being said, my hope is that all drivers err on the side of avoiding an incident and leaving racing room.

hf1

Thanks. You too seem to suggest that the rules should pick one of the two conflicting scenarios, stick with it, and enforce it consistently. In this case these two rules would be enough and perfectly consistent:

1. The passing car has responsibility to make a clean pass.
2. The car ahead at turn in has the corner.

No need to confuse things by adding "...but doesn't own the corner. Everyone must leave racing room.". This way everyone would know that they could just go for the apex if they are ahead at turn in, and every passing driver that is still behind at turn-in would have to stand his car on its nose and line up behind lest he gets involved in a contact for which he would get a 13.

Gary R.

Actually if I know i'm not going to be past him before turn in I make the call early and tuck in behind. I've been chopped enough (and picked up a 13 my 2nd year out) to make the assumption it's going to happen and he doesn't see you. It's more fun to finish a little frustrated than not finish at all... All the rules do is give you an arguing point after the collision, I prefer not to have to argue, but that's me! Mr. Nice Guy.

hf1

Yes, my question is which of those two potential outcomes is expected and enforced by the rules? Both ProCoach and you seem to prefer Scenario b), and I do too, yet the actual enforcement of the rules (punishing the inside passing car with a 13 instead of the outside passed car which didn't leave room and went for "his" apex) seems to prefer Scenario a). The first goal of my inquiry is to establish that the two scenarios are conflicting yet both allowed by the rules. My second goal is to express my preference for the encouragement and enforcement of Scenario b ("...does not own the corner. Everyone must leave racing room.")

mehoff

Same.

ProCoach

1. and 2. were the way the rules were written in March 1991 by Alan Freidman, during the formation of PCA Club Racing, and lifted directly from the Sportscar Vintage Racing Association's 13/13 Rule.

In amateur racing, the primary responsibility is ALWAYS on the overtaking driver. Because there is NO incident, without an overtaking car...

mehoff

Congrats! I think you two just solved the thread.

Fumes

x3

there is only one apex -- if I am not even or ahead at turn in, gotta back out because it isnt mine to take.

if I come upon a driver I know that knows me and they leave the door open, depending on the corner, you can take inside since they arent trying to impede you but get you by without breaking too much of your momentum or theirs, though you both are a bit off line, so small sacrifice in laptime. if i dont know the car, I expect them to slam the door (and many do), so I generally set up a gap and get a run to clear traffic on the straight.

should submit the rule change and see how it flies. who knows? but to be clear, how you put it is how in how things "should" work in practical terms now.

hf1

Gary, do you think that the enforcement of Scenario b ("...does not own the corner. Everyone must leave racing room.") by punishing the outside passed ("chopper") car with a 13 for the contact would encourage awareness and lower the frequency of this chop happening? Do you think that the enforcement of Scenario a ("The car ahead at turn in has the corner...") by punishing the inside passing car with a 13 for the contact discourages awareness on the part of the outside passed car and increases the frequency of this chop happening?

LuigiVampa

Look - I got you another page! And you thought I was trying to shut this thread down!

hf1

There is also NO racing without overtaking, or without getting out of bed that morning.

So we all seem to prefer (and hope for) the "gentlemanly" Scenario b in which a door is not slammed (and room is given), yet we understand that the rules are enforcing Scenario a in which a door could be "legally" slammed with no penalty for the "slammer" if contact is initiated. Assuming that we also agree that the rules should be consistent and non-contradicting, which one of these two sets of consistent rules would you prefer to race under?

(Scenario a):
1. The passing car has the responsibility to make a clean pass.
2. The car ahead at turn in has the corner.

OR

(Scenario b):
1. The car ahead at turn in does not own the corner.
2. Everyone must leave racing room.

Thx.

hf1

Thx, I owe you a beer.
But I hope we're not having this discussion just for my benefit and that it is relevant and helpful for every club racer.

ExMB

+1

On a different note;

Should we start a poll on how long it'll take to get get the next 13 once back from the existing 13 vacation? IMHO it seems that arguments are being collected in the hopes that on the next go-around the decision will go in their favor.