That's because there are no pro drivers posting fast laps in the gt4. I guarantee someone like Andrie would obliterate all of our times (probably even randy pobst) if he spent some time in the gt4. If you ride with Andrie, you'll notice the car is breaking loose on almost every corner. He gets the car rotated very early so he can be on the gas earlier and accelerate longer. But he's also very smooth with everything. That's the difference between a good driver and an average one. And I consider most of us average drivers at best. Being smooth doesn't mean not breaking traction. If you don't have a good slip angle and the tires aren't sliding through the corner, you might be smooth, but you are also going slower than you can. Andrie has already said that the nannies interfere a lot for him in the 991 gt3, and I'm sure it would be the same in the gt4.

I still strongly believe you will learn a lot more and eventually get much faster if you drive with the nannies off. You ultimately need very good car control to drive at the razor edge of the car's potential. And you'll never get comfortable there with the systems on.

Which is not to say I think everyone should turn them off. If you are out there to just have fun, then keep them on and enjoy driving. But making any sort of assumption that having the systems on isn't any slower because no one has been faster without them is kind of silly to me. Anyone serious about getting faster and becoming a better driver should be working towards being able to drive with the nannies off. But that's just my opinion.

 

Yeah, me too. It's too bad Porsche didn't build the car for advanced drivers in mind, but I can guess why they didn't.

I've had full aero since day one track day.

Both sets of tires (cup2 and re71r) have only lasted me 3 days, so I can't say if I get the re71r to last 5 days by flipping they won't cycle out before then. However, I'll bet they will be fine. They handle the heat very well. We'll find out soon enough. Even if they don't, they are still worth getting the setup to run them. One of my best laps was the 12th lap at Sonoma last weekend. That would never happen with cup2. I have zero plans to run my gt3 again until I can get re71r on it.

 

I didn't think you read this thread. It hasn't gone unnoticed that ever since you learned use ESC a few years ago that you don't acknowledge any of my track posts anymore, so I assumed you just don't look at them.

You are right that a certain amount of slip angle is faster and ESC off might net a faster lap time in the right hands. I'm willing to bet it won't be more than 1 second, though. That has been shown in the past using pro drivers. Not in the GT4, so absolute assumptions can't be made either way, I suppose. On the other hand, based on video, both you and I are much more than 1 second off pace of what can be done with the car even with ESC left on. I choose to work on that segment still being left on the table while having something to save me when something bad happens. You choose to work on both. I can respect that and certainly don't look down on it. I choose to leave a safety net on because nobody is paying me or for the car to take it to the ragged edge. I hope you can respect that.

Bad things can happen even to the best drivers.

 

Well said Joe. Porsche GT ESC is really amazing and much different from the typical nannies found on the other brands. Off with a pro is probably quickest, but come on, most of us are out for FUN and honestly not truly pushing 10/10ths. Not to mention every track is different and carries varying risks. I have run the majority of sessions with ESC off and the car is very controllable even in a slide, but that doesn't mean it is faster or even an intelligent move. As stated before, my fastest lap was with it on and if walls were a concern, it would remain on.

 

I Love all the great entusiasts on rennlist gt4 forum, its so much fun and god info in general.

Personaly I think in regards of ESC there is alot of speculation.

The tools are there, right in front of al people in a new GT car from Porsche. Rather than to speculate how ESC work on the personal driving style, get the facts! Its so easy via the track app. I done it several times.

To me the gt4 is not so much fun if driving ESC on, in terms of ultimat laptime the average driver will to my experience not make the most out of a gt4 ESC off anyway. Today this system is very god, sure. And there cant be to much of a difference if same solid driver go off vs on.

As well its way more fun to balance a gt4 on the limit of griplevels, (not drifing but on limit where its fastest laps) its to me more natural to tranfere weight in the car and to rotate it if ESC fully off. I would say on the limit its more sweetspoot drivingexperience if fully ESC off, It drives pure and better fully free. Cant explain it better, but sure nasty slide will come and we most work it. Still that slide will slow me down. As I remember when test it very very close in laptime on vs off. Must check logg.

Few days ago was laping on track, I always fully ESC off and on the 6 lap out off 7 a hot day I lost it big time in a left bend slide then right in the way the track go, and just keept going. Nasy but not to hard and keep going. Sure that lap was a lost in terms of laptime, and ESC would prevent car from drifting in that tankslapperway, ESC would save me time at that oversteer moment. But all them other laps was fine and perfect.

All is on Porsche app film so we can see time lost in slide vs clean lap. I driven gt4 pretty much to test ESC on vs off and and car is much better ESC off to balance it on limit and tranfere weight front/rear and rotate car etc.

This week I could very much do a solid test and see how my outcome is in ESC on vs off.

Oh well, to my experience the average driver would not get to that level and experience it.(balance car at griplevels Max without over slide it, and transfere weight etc.) Most likely many people are scared if ESC off and most people in a gt4 would get slower in lap times due to that I guess. They feel safer if ESC on, hence can go faster vs if off. Also due to my gt4 is stock still its very understeery,(only -2 front -1.6 rear) thats also a reason to go ESC off to when you feel for it. Let the front tire rest some and tranfere more weight to rear and take the load of them front tire for a few laps let them have it easy while the rear brake lose and take the heat instead.

 

^ good post, thanks.
The one feature of the app that I would have liked to examine was how much esc is working. I didn't get the app on the GT4, though since I couldn't get it work work reliably on the GT3.

 

Thanks. To bad many have not get app working as its very much solid in how it show instant where you trigger ESC and how much you trigger ESC( at what slip level/is ESC set to kick in, only we driving app know:-)) and time lost vs off etc. Its top notch that part. All guys drive so different and trigger ESC very different as well some can even go a clean fast lap ESC on and make it not trigger, others can not do that etc.

Thats my 2 cents, its very individual how ESC on vs off slow you down or make you faster etc, etc. depending on a lot of thing.

 

This.

 

i got srping for you joe

 

Sweet.

 

Here is some data, it was full on from 1-7 lap ( oversteer came on 7 lap, due to war with Ferrari 488 who did not move, then finaly pass him aggressive and later on in lap tires also was very hot due to full pace 7 lap/hot wether as well. Oversteery was big right slide and instant over to left slide.

See data 100% oversteer both right and left slide. See ESC 100% off, green line show this. If ESC on green line is futher up in pic as well trigger points show green up peek to follow yellow peek wich show oversteer. (Av is off in swe, På is ESC on)

Later on I can show the full 7 laps Porsche app data film, as well show how much time I lose in this big slide.


Yellow peek is big, as It shows big 100% oversteer in to lefthander, second peek is next big oversteer in to righthander ( its like a S section on this short 3,2km track)




This is exakt same place as above pic. You also see grafic in pic go from green to yellow and then red, this show its a big 100% oversteer slid.

 

Now White marker is on the next folowing drift in to righthander( it was like a tankslapper drift, not that I wanted this. But my reactions was slow on the oversteer that happend just before, hence I did not clear it out and got this nasty tankslapper kick oversteer on end of oversteer. Peek oversteer is also here 100%, thats big oversteer and this is only the second time in over 1 year I got this big oversteer. In total I am oversteeing ca. 100+meters, but not of free will, it took me Quick but I always tend to ride them out ok never go off track. That Said, who knows when it hit me hard and I will crash? Time will tell, but my ods are god as I always rain drift my car to keep reactions sharp.




Same place as White marker. Its very loud in film this slide and you see steering wheel working fast

 

I've only tracked my GT4 twice. But one of the things that stood out to me was how softly sprung the car felt compared to my 987 track car with 600/800lb springs. The GT4 felt so slow to transfer weight. And it wallowed through some of the tight transitions.

I know that some people have begun using slightly stiffer springs on their GT4's. Joe, I think this would be a very worthwhile modification for you. I suspect the car will feel much better, it will corner flatter, you'll feel more confident with the improved stability, and it may be improve your tire wear!

 

^ springs are on their way to joe

 

All I want is even tire wear. I haven't had that since my 987 spyder. GT3 and GT4 even tire wear have eluded me. I can't figure out why a spyder can get a track alignment and even tire wear with only a simple adjustable front LCA while a 991GT3 and 981GT4 require multiple parts to get an alignment and the tires still won't wear evenly.