dprantl

Let's not confuse what we are talking about here with racecars and other irrelevant stuff. The statement here was that a stock Panamera would be able to outperform a forced-induced 928. In that case it would also have to outperform a 997TT (a 480hp 3,500lbs+ car); I do that with my 928 at least once a week. Everyone knows that's not going to happen. And my 928 is not even close to being the fastest forced-induced 928.

Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft

surfridermason

AWESOME!!! The 928 reborn.

cobalt

Well actually this all came about by comparing a stock any model 928 (not forced-induced, stiffened or modified) against the yet to be released, stock Panamera. Again there is a big difference between outperforming a car in a straight line and on the track. My turbo will also out run a 997TT in a straight line and most likely on the track. (my turbo is now at 450 hp and 460 torque weighing 3120 pounds without anything removed and only minor mods) Although the TT has the AWD advantage, PSM, and active shocks.

I have been to many different tracks and there have been many different 928's I have run with, nothing to date has proven to me that the 928 is a better handling car than a 911. Even 928's with Hypercoil suspensions running 245/285 A6's have not shown me they can out handle my N/A C2. Adding a blower or major power modifications will make a live axle Mustang fast too but again not a car I would want to drive.

Hell I can twin turbo my C2 and you can and he can and we can and so on etc etc etc. This is always a pointless argument. The fact is out of the box the newer cars are just better performers with modern suspensions and computer aids that can do a lot more with a lot less power. As I said before it doesn't make driving them the pleasurable experience driving a 928 is it just makes them easier to drive fast which is what normally wins races and sells cars today.

worf928

Assuming "it" is the interior, this is what I find offensive: it was designed by a drivers-licenseless arts school major that takes the short bus to work. Someone that has never even tried to think about driving. Someone that yacks on the cellphone or texts their BFFs while riding my bumper. Someone that has no concept of the attention or skill that should be applied to driving.

Look at the between-seats console were the (yuck!) automatic shifter sits. There are, what looks like, over a dozen buttons arrayed on both sides of the stick that will all feel the same when you try to operate them. You will be forced to take your eyes off the road, look down by your right thigh and find the right button to press. Now, the Panamera isn't at all unique in this regard. Most new cars have a similar motif of function following form rather than the form following function. And I hate all of them. I want an interior that is designed for driving, not one that might be pretty but is ergonomically non-functional. Not an interior that requires me to take my concentration from driving.

No... no... No changing the rules now.
It was you that wrote that :

So you have to stick to 928s. Street car to street car. I may have raised you a supercharger and some big front wheels but mine's still a 928 that's meant for street duty.

And it is the 928 that always comes up in articles about the Panamera.

I'll stipulate to your C2 handling better than a 928 for purposes of discussion: Given two cars of different weights but with the same power-to-weight ratio and all other things equal the lighter car is probably going to handle better.

Nor will your C2 ever be as nimble as a kart. But, 'nimble' is as much about weight as anything.

It is. But it has a 32% power-to-weight advantage and a 15% 'tire-to-weight' advantage over my stock-engined GT even with 255s on the front of the 928. SO, it had better DAMN WELL be faster.

But, it - the ZO6 - is harder to drive fast than the 928 and at the same speed on the track you'd rather be driving a 928. The C6 Z51 and C6 Z06 are no different in that regard - they are not as comfortable to drive fast on the street or track as a 928. But, of course the C6 Z06 is a serious beast on the track even with street tires.

I wait with baited breath. Since a 997TT Cab weighs about 3800 pounds and 'close' can be +/- 10%, both of our guesses could be correct. I could forgive a lot of sins if a Panamera weighs 3800 pounds or less.

In my mind weight is the primary enemy. All of the Panamera's competition weighs at least 4000 pounds. There's no Marketing Reason to make it weigh less when you can, alternatively, throw in more Porsche-priced electro-gizmo options made out of lead.

Randy V

Moved to the Panamera forum...

jhc68164

Looks like a BMW to me.....

cobalt

I agree it does look complicated initially, however it looks similar to the older Ferrari, Lamborghini and as I mentioned before Citroen SM interiors. Assuming this is the actual interior the switches appear to be logically placed for driver and a number of blanks on the passenger side. I would assume like any car you get used to it over time and at least the switches are within fingertip reach. (thankfully I see no I drive type device) Besides the PDK is awesome and would be nice to drive.

Most people today can't live without their Ipods and gadgets. I like yourself are not one of them but they aren't selling this car to us. We aren't the supporters of the marque today. Even though I like the new 997.5 I am not about to spend $100k on a new carrera when so many older Porsche's are available for a lot less and do exactly what I want and need from a car. Although I find it interesting that they are taking on a new market. Unlike many of you I have a need for my Cayenne and it is so refreshing to climb in and drive an SUV type vehicle and not feel like I am in some truck. The Cayenne has taken the boring box and made it exciting to drive although maybe not as exciting to look at but what can be done with a box that already hasn't been done and looks like all the other boxes out there.

I think the Panamera will do the same thing for sedans. It might not look as racy as the Rapide or some other concepts out there but it will be functional.

Ok fair enough. Although my GTS weighs in at 3505 pounds I did own a 80 Euro for a number of years and it was a fast car for the time and a 5 speed, although my 911's of the time weighed less they also had far less hp and still were better handling car. I will say from 1st hand experience my CT is a faster car than my GTS weighs a lot more and can handle as well if your willing to manually shift and work hard. So in turn I expect the Panamera to do as well if not better than my CT.


True but my turbo weighs 120 pounds more than my C2 has considerably more Hp and much more torque and both cars have nearly identical suspension upgrades, it is fast in the straights but the staggered track works against the turbo in the tight turns and for it in the sweeping turns, so it has a lot to do with track and suspension design too.


I agree. I had an 08 Z51 with exhaust mods and who knows what else done to it on my tail the other day. I was surprised to see I could only pull a few car lengths on it up to 100. I would say it is only a few clicks off the C6 Z06. I have only driven a few C5's and I was totally disappointed. I have not driven a C5 Z06 but my turbo is considerably faster and I know from first hand experience most vette drivers chicken out once we get into the tight turns.


True. but it is the electro-gizmos that sell 90% of all cars today and without PSM and all the other gizmos most of these cars could not exist and most people could not drive them. I would assume if a Cayenne GTS 5 speed without the anti roll feature can come within 3 seconds of some of the fastest most experienced autocrossers I know, driving fully modified cars specifically set up for AX I can only assume the Panamera will do the same if not better and I know that maybe a better driver can equal the times I have seen put down by a CGTS in my 928 but it would take a lot of effort and skill to do so.

When I look at the pictures of the panamera I see 3 major areas that are obviously camouflaged and can make a big difference in overall looks. I am sure we will see some additional changes once it is released. Hopefully it will improve what we see here. Every change i have seen with the 997/GT3 and GT2 have proven positive. I hope they are just playing with us and surprise us all.

worf928

I had a dream last night that I bought a new Panamera. Woke up in a sweat. Ate too much spicy food too late in the evening...

You write that like its a good thing? The last old Ferrari I drove - a 308 - was an ergonomic Charlie Foxtrot.

Sure they are within finger tip reach, but since they'll all feel identical you'll still have to look at your leg to use them.

Hallelujah Brother.

Yep. If that 'automatic shifter' is indeed PDK and not the noodle connected to a slush box, and it operates like Audi's DSG in terms of driver-control over shift points then, yes: Very good.

At the risk of offending 'vette drivers, I will write that the 'vette drivers I have seen attend PCA events are, as a rule, untrained and use horsepower to erase their 'chickening' on corners. The chickening out is due to - IMO - the transverse leaf spring suspension. It results in body motion that has little to do with what the tires are doing. It is unnerving the first time you push that suspension to the 'chicken point' when turning-in or braking. But, once you realize that past the chicken point the car's planted, a C5 Z06 can very easily stay with a C2/4 on any track. Can't say what it'll do to a Turbo. Come to Watkins Glen next summer...

But, we both know that the adjustment of the nut behind the wheel is more important than the car.

<sigh> True. And I know this. But, I'm still going to bitch about it. I really don't see why the UIs of all the electro-gizmos cannot be designed to also please drivers. Or at least not irk them?

cobalt

now that is funny.

Got me there. But you pulled the bastard child out of the hat. The 308 is the second worst Ferrari I can think of with the Mondial taking the lead, but I never considered them a true example of what Ferrari had to offer and they were a poor design in every way but exterior looks.

I was think along the lines of the Miura, 512, 288 GTO or Bora which were not great either but had a classic sports car interior.


I don't see it as being the problem you do, but I need to look at all my switches before pushing them. Switching back and forth between different cars is not always easy. Best yet is trying to remind myself what shift pattern I am driving.



Same system designed by Porsche. Had a chance to see it in action a few weeks back. The launch control and double clutch are sweet. Do you think we can figure a retro kit for the 928's Three technologies newer cars have to day are the PDK, DFI and variable turbine. Some consider electronics an improvement and can't drive the older cars without PSM and other electronic aids although I feel the charm and skill has been removed rendering these cars no better than a video game. Hell all i have is ABS and i still miss threshold braking.

Did I hear the glen mentioned. You name it I will be there. I am heading to VIR in a week and last year we had a new Z06 there, it was fast in the straights but the GT3's were passing him most of the tme. The driver was experienced but I think he was a little nervous as you mentioned. Although I have a friend who is a long time Porsche owner and he prefers his C5R vette on the track over anything.

How true!
Wish I had the answer. If you figure it out let me know.

Boston911fan

They're trying too hard to make it look like a CGT mated with a 996 and had a giant baby. Why can't they do something really new? They didn't try at all to make the 928 and 924/944 look like the 911 back in the day, so why can't they give the Panamera it's own look? Personally, if I had a family and wanted a high end sedan, I would consider the concept of a 4-door Porsche in order to stick with the brand, but probably not if it's going to look like this.

Ron_H

+ 200 !!! Well said. Why not start with a clean sheet of paper?? Recently, I have been eyeballing four door sedans and there are some genuinely attractive examples of other marques out there. Several names come to mind. If I wanted a four door, I would jump for one of them before even considering this "thing", despite Porsche's performance reputation.

Spyderidol

Some new pictures of the interior:

Boston911fan

You could still keep some elements like the round headlights and shield-shaped hood, but why limit yourself to a fastback? If they really insist on doing that, at least clean up the lines a bit by adding a bit more rake to the hatch! As for Porsche hatches that could inspire the Panamera, I like the lines of the 928 and Cayman.

Ron, tell me about your Rabbit. You can tell by my fleet where my loyalty lies. Speaking of sports sedans, I really like the lines of the new VW CC. Just eliminate the Kamm tail and extrude the sheet metal out to form a Porsche butt. I don't know.

Wow, what's with the crazy buttons on the overhead console? It looks like the cockpit of a pre-LCD display Boeing 747-100. -200. or -300. All those switches!!!! Where's the flight engineer's console and seat?

cobalt

Hate to say it but I like the interior so far.

Looks pretty straight forward. Larger buttons for all the same stuff provided in most cars I have all the same buttons in my cayenne and it is harder to tell what is what. This looks well laid out to me. Everything at your fingertips and easily recognizable.

I think the clean slate idea is great however when Porsche was designing the 928 there was nothing but clean slates to work with. Today so many designs have come and gone. Patents on designs not yet used are issues. I think the concept itself is a new beginning and being the cautious company they are getting the design to work is phase 1. I am sure like the 996, 997, 997.5 they will improve over time.

Ron_H

Boston911fan:
My Rabbit is a Wolfsburg Edition '84 which I've driven and driven and driven. I had another Rabbit before this one that I drove across country and back several times. I camp in it (huge amounts of space), I sleep in it (truck stop showers for $5 and a short snooze and I'm on my way), I use it as a truck to go to Home Depot, I carry lots of groceries in it. It just keeps on going and going. But my old one, ( '79) finally died after a billion or so miles with a blown head gasket, so I bought my "84 and traveled in it for awhile. The reason I got it was on advice of a friend in the Porsche parts business who said when I kept buying parts for my 914/6 that I needed to get an econo-box to drive when the Porsche was down. I did. And it worked so well that I drove the Rabbit more often....mostly to his parts store for Porsche parts.

But now I lust for an Audi A-3 for the all wheel drive.