Newest spy shots of the Panamera
#181
Race Car
Let's not confuse what we are talking about here with racecars and other irrelevant stuff. The statement here was that a stock Panamera would be able to outperform a forced-induced 928. In that case it would also have to outperform a 997TT (a 480hp 3,500lbs+ car); I do that with my 928 at least once a week. Everyone knows that's not going to happen. And my 928 is not even close to being the fastest forced-induced 928.
Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft
Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft
#183
Rennlist Member
Let's not confuse what we are talking about here with racecars and other irrelevant stuff. The statement here was that a stock Panamera would be able to outperform a forced-induced 928. In that case it would also have to outperform a 997TT (a 480hp 3,500lbs+ car); I do that with my 928 at least once a week. Everyone knows that's not going to happen. And my 928 is not even close to being the fastest forced-induced 928.
Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft
Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft
I have been to many different tracks and there have been many different 928's I have run with, nothing to date has proven to me that the 928 is a better handling car than a 911. Even 928's with Hypercoil suspensions running 245/285 A6's have not shown me they can out handle my N/A C2. Adding a blower or major power modifications will make a live axle Mustang fast too but again not a car I would want to drive.
Hell I can twin turbo my C2 and you can and he can and we can and so on etc etc etc. This is always a pointless argument. The fact is out of the box the newer cars are just better performers with modern suspensions and computer aids that can do a lot more with a lot less power. As I said before it doesn't make driving them the pleasurable experience driving a 928 is it just makes them easier to drive fast which is what normally wins races and sells cars today.
#184
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Assuming "it" is the interior, this is what I find offensive: it was designed by a drivers-licenseless arts school major that takes the short bus to work. Someone that has never even tried to think about driving. Someone that yacks on the cellphone or texts their BFFs while riding my bumper. Someone that has no concept of the attention or skill that should be applied to driving.
Look at the between-seats console were the (yuck!) automatic shifter sits. There are, what looks like, over a dozen buttons arrayed on both sides of the stick that will all feel the same when you try to operate them. You will be forced to take your eyes off the road, look down by your right thigh and find the right button to press. Now, the Panamera isn't at all unique in this regard. Most new cars have a similar motif of function following form rather than the form following function. And I hate all of them. I want an interior that is designed for driving, not one that might be pretty but is ergonomically non-functional. Not an interior that requires me to take my concentration from driving.
No... no... No changing the rules now.
It was you that wrote that :
So you have to stick to 928s. Street car to street car. I may have raised you a supercharger and some big front wheels but mine's still a 928 that's meant for street duty.
And it is the 928 that always comes up in articles about the Panamera.
I'll stipulate to your C2 handling better than a 928 for purposes of discussion: Given two cars of different weights but with the same power-to-weight ratio and all other things equal the lighter car is probably going to handle better.
Nor will your C2 ever be as nimble as a kart. But, 'nimble' is as much about weight as anything.
It is. But it has a 32% power-to-weight advantage and a 15% 'tire-to-weight' advantage over my stock-engined GT even with 255s on the front of the 928. SO, it had better DAMN WELL be faster.
But, it - the ZO6 - is harder to drive fast than the 928 and at the same speed on the track you'd rather be driving a 928. The C6 Z51 and C6 Z06 are no different in that regard - they are not as comfortable to drive fast on the street or track as a 928. But, of course the C6 Z06 is a serious beast on the track even with street tires.
I wait with baited breath. Since a 997TT Cab weighs about 3800 pounds and 'close' can be +/- 10%, both of our guesses could be correct. I could forgive a lot of sins if a Panamera weighs 3800 pounds or less.
In my mind weight is the primary enemy. All of the Panamera's competition weighs at least 4000 pounds. There's no Marketing Reason to make it weigh less when you can, alternatively, throw in more Porsche-priced electro-gizmo options made out of lead.
Look at the between-seats console were the (yuck!) automatic shifter sits. There are, what looks like, over a dozen buttons arrayed on both sides of the stick that will all feel the same when you try to operate them. You will be forced to take your eyes off the road, look down by your right thigh and find the right button to press. Now, the Panamera isn't at all unique in this regard. Most new cars have a similar motif of function following form rather than the form following function. And I hate all of them. I want an interior that is designed for driving, not one that might be pretty but is ergonomically non-functional. Not an interior that requires me to take my concentration from driving.
No... no... No changing the rules now.
It was you that wrote that :
So you have to stick to 928s. Street car to street car. I may have raised you a supercharger and some big front wheels but mine's still a 928 that's meant for street duty.
And it is the 928 that always comes up in articles about the Panamera.
I'll stipulate to your C2 handling better than a 928 for purposes of discussion: Given two cars of different weights but with the same power-to-weight ratio and all other things equal the lighter car is probably going to handle better.
I have tried wider rubber front and rear and my GTS will never be nimble like my C2.
I would think your Z06 would be far quicker than most 928's.
But, it - the ZO6 - is harder to drive fast than the 928 and at the same speed on the track you'd rather be driving a 928. The C6 Z51 and C6 Z06 are no different in that regard - they are not as comfortable to drive fast on the street or track as a 928. But, of course the C6 Z06 is a serious beast on the track even with street tires.
Conversations with PCNA reps lead me to believe the Panamera will be far less than the weights you are imposing. It should be far closer to the weight of a 997TT than that of the Cayenne.
In my mind weight is the primary enemy. All of the Panamera's competition weighs at least 4000 pounds. There's no Marketing Reason to make it weigh less when you can, alternatively, throw in more Porsche-priced electro-gizmo options made out of lead.
#187
Rennlist Member
Assuming "it" is the interior, this is what I find offensive: it was designed by a drivers-licenseless arts school major that takes the short bus to work. Someone that has never even tried to think about driving. Someone that yacks on the cellphone or texts their BFFs while riding my bumper. Someone that has no concept of the attention or skill that should be applied to driving.
Look at the between-seats console were the (yuck!) automatic shifter sits. There are, what looks like, over a dozen buttons arrayed on both sides of the stick that will all feel the same when you try to operate them. You will be forced to take your eyes off the road, look down by your right thigh and find the right button to press. Now, the Panamera isn't at all unique in this regard. Most new cars have a similar motif of function following form rather than the form following function. And I hate all of them. I want an interior that is designed for driving, not one that might be pretty but is ergonomically non-functional. Not an interior that requires me to take my concentration from driving.
Look at the between-seats console were the (yuck!) automatic shifter sits. There are, what looks like, over a dozen buttons arrayed on both sides of the stick that will all feel the same when you try to operate them. You will be forced to take your eyes off the road, look down by your right thigh and find the right button to press. Now, the Panamera isn't at all unique in this regard. Most new cars have a similar motif of function following form rather than the form following function. And I hate all of them. I want an interior that is designed for driving, not one that might be pretty but is ergonomically non-functional. Not an interior that requires me to take my concentration from driving.
Most people today can't live without their Ipods and gadgets. I like yourself are not one of them but they aren't selling this car to us. We aren't the supporters of the marque today. Even though I like the new 997.5 I am not about to spend $100k on a new carrera when so many older Porsche's are available for a lot less and do exactly what I want and need from a car. Although I find it interesting that they are taking on a new market. Unlike many of you I have a need for my Cayenne and it is so refreshing to climb in and drive an SUV type vehicle and not feel like I am in some truck. The Cayenne has taken the boring box and made it exciting to drive although maybe not as exciting to look at but what can be done with a box that already hasn't been done and looks like all the other boxes out there.
I think the Panamera will do the same thing for sedans. It might not look as racy as the Rapide or some other concepts out there but it will be functional.
No... no... No changing the rules now.
It was you that wrote that :
It was you that wrote that :
Nor will your C2 ever be as nimble as a kart. But, 'nimble' is as much about weight as anything.
It is. But it has a 32% power-to-weight advantage and a 15% 'tire-to-weight' advantage over my stock-engined GT even with 255s on the front of the 928. SO, it had better DAMN WELL be faster.
But, it - the ZO6 - is harder to drive fast than the 928 and at the same speed on the track you'd rather be driving a 928. The C6 Z51 and C6 Z06 are no different in that regard - they are not as comfortable to drive fast on the street or track as a 928. But, of course the C6 Z06 is a serious beast on the track even with street tires.
But, it - the ZO6 - is harder to drive fast than the 928 and at the same speed on the track you'd rather be driving a 928. The C6 Z51 and C6 Z06 are no different in that regard - they are not as comfortable to drive fast on the street or track as a 928. But, of course the C6 Z06 is a serious beast on the track even with street tires.
I wait with baited breath. Since a 997TT Cab weighs about 3800 pounds and 'close' can be +/- 10%, both of our guesses could be correct. I could forgive a lot of sins if a Panamera weighs 3800 pounds or less.
In my mind weight is the primary enemy. All of the Panamera's competition weighs at least 4000 pounds. There's no Marketing Reason to make it weigh less when you can, alternatively, throw in more Porsche-priced electro-gizmo options made out of lead.
In my mind weight is the primary enemy. All of the Panamera's competition weighs at least 4000 pounds. There's no Marketing Reason to make it weigh less when you can, alternatively, throw in more Porsche-priced electro-gizmo options made out of lead.
When I look at the pictures of the panamera I see 3 major areas that are obviously camouflaged and can make a big difference in overall looks. I am sure we will see some additional changes once it is released. Hopefully it will improve what we see here. Every change i have seen with the 997/GT3 and GT2 have proven positive. I hope they are just playing with us and surprise us all.
#188
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I had a dream last night that I bought a new Panamera. Woke up in a sweat. Ate too much spicy food too late in the evening...
You write that like its a good thing? The last old Ferrari I drove - a 308 - was an ergonomic Charlie Foxtrot.
Sure they are within finger tip reach, but since they'll all feel identical you'll still have to look at your leg to use them.
Hallelujah Brother.
Yep. If that 'automatic shifter' is indeed PDK and not the noodle connected to a slush box, and it operates like Audi's DSG in terms of driver-control over shift points then, yes: Very good.
At the risk of offending 'vette drivers, I will write that the 'vette drivers I have seen attend PCA events are, as a rule, untrained and use horsepower to erase their 'chickening' on corners. The chickening out is due to - IMO - the transverse leaf spring suspension. It results in body motion that has little to do with what the tires are doing. It is unnerving the first time you push that suspension to the 'chicken point' when turning-in or braking. But, once you realize that past the chicken point the car's planted, a C5 Z06 can very easily stay with a C2/4 on any track. Can't say what it'll do to a Turbo. Come to Watkins Glen next summer...
But, we both know that the adjustment of the nut behind the wheel is more important than the car.
<sigh> True. And I know this. But, I'm still going to bitch about it. I really don't see why the UIs of all the electro-gizmos cannot be designed to also please drivers. Or at least not irk them?
I would assume like any car you get used to it over time and at least the switches are within fingertip reach.
(thankfully I see no I drive type device)
Besides the PDK is awesome and would be nice to drive.
I have not driven a C5 Z06 but my turbo is considerably faster and I know from first hand experience most vette drivers chicken out once we get into the tight turns.
But, we both know that the adjustment of the nut behind the wheel is more important than the car.
True. but it is the electro-gizmos that sell 90% of all cars today and without PSM and all the other gizmos most of these cars could not exist and most people could not drive them.
Last edited by worf928; 10-26-2008 at 06:33 PM. Reason: spelink
#189
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You write that like its a good thing? The last old Ferrari I drove - a 308 - was an ergonomic Charlie Foxtrot.
I was think along the lines of the Miura, 512, 288 GTO or Bora which were not great either but had a classic sports car interior.
Sure they are within finger tip reach, but since they'll all feel identical you'll still have to look at your leg to use them.
Hallelujah Brother.
Yep. If that 'automatic shifter' is indeed PDK and not the noodle connected to a slush box, and it operates like Audi's DSG in terms of driver-control over shift points then, yes: Very good.
At the risk of offending 'vette drivers, I will write that the 'vette drivers I have seen attend PCA events are, as a rule, untrained and use horsepower to erase their 'chickening' on corners. The chickening out is due to - IMO - the transverse leaf spring suspension. It results in body motion that has little to do with what the tires are doing. It is unnerving the first time you push that suspension to the 'chicken point' when turning-in or braking. But, once you realize that past the chicken point the car's planted, a C5 Z06 can very easily stay with a C2/4 on any track. Can't say what it'll do to a Turbo. Come to Watkins Glen next summer...
But, we both know that the adjustment of the nut behind the wheel is more important than the car.
<sigh> True. And I know this. But, I'm still going to bitch about it. I really don't see why the UIs of all the electro-gizmos cannot be designed to also please drivers. Or at least not irk them?
#190
They're trying too hard to make it look like a CGT mated with a 996 and had a giant baby. Why can't they do something really new? They didn't try at all to make the 928 and 924/944 look like the 911 back in the day, so why can't they give the Panamera it's own look? Personally, if I had a family and wanted a high end sedan, I would consider the concept of a 4-door Porsche in order to stick with the brand, but probably not if it's going to look like this.
#191
928 Barrister
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They're trying too hard to make it look like a CGT mated with a 996 and had a giant baby. Why can't they do something really new? They didn't try at all to make the 928 and 924/944 look like the 911 back in the day, so why can't they give the Panamera it's own look? Personally, if I had a family and wanted a high end sedan, I would consider the concept of a 4-door Porsche in order to stick with the brand, but probably not if it's going to look like this.
#193
You could still keep some elements like the round headlights and shield-shaped hood, but why limit yourself to a fastback? If they really insist on doing that, at least clean up the lines a bit by adding a bit more rake to the hatch! As for Porsche hatches that could inspire the Panamera, I like the lines of the 928 and Cayman.
Ron, tell me about your Rabbit. You can tell by my fleet where my loyalty lies. Speaking of sports sedans, I really like the lines of the new VW CC. Just eliminate the Kamm tail and extrude the sheet metal out to form a Porsche butt. I don't know.
Wow, what's with the crazy buttons on the overhead console? It looks like the cockpit of a pre-LCD display Boeing 747-100. -200. or -300. All those switches!!!! Where's the flight engineer's console and seat?
Ron, tell me about your Rabbit. You can tell by my fleet where my loyalty lies. Speaking of sports sedans, I really like the lines of the new VW CC. Just eliminate the Kamm tail and extrude the sheet metal out to form a Porsche butt. I don't know.
Wow, what's with the crazy buttons on the overhead console? It looks like the cockpit of a pre-LCD display Boeing 747-100. -200. or -300. All those switches!!!! Where's the flight engineer's console and seat?
#194
Rennlist Member
Hate to say it but I like the interior so far.
Looks pretty straight forward. Larger buttons for all the same stuff provided in most cars I have all the same buttons in my cayenne and it is harder to tell what is what. This looks well laid out to me. Everything at your fingertips and easily recognizable.
I think the clean slate idea is great however when Porsche was designing the 928 there was nothing but clean slates to work with. Today so many designs have come and gone. Patents on designs not yet used are issues. I think the concept itself is a new beginning and being the cautious company they are getting the design to work is phase 1. I am sure like the 996, 997, 997.5 they will improve over time.
Looks pretty straight forward. Larger buttons for all the same stuff provided in most cars I have all the same buttons in my cayenne and it is harder to tell what is what. This looks well laid out to me. Everything at your fingertips and easily recognizable.
I think the clean slate idea is great however when Porsche was designing the 928 there was nothing but clean slates to work with. Today so many designs have come and gone. Patents on designs not yet used are issues. I think the concept itself is a new beginning and being the cautious company they are getting the design to work is phase 1. I am sure like the 996, 997, 997.5 they will improve over time.
#195
928 Barrister
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Boston911fan:
My Rabbit is a Wolfsburg Edition '84 which I've driven and driven and driven. I had another Rabbit before this one that I drove across country and back several times. I camp in it (huge amounts of space), I sleep in it (truck stop showers for $5 and a short snooze and I'm on my way), I use it as a truck to go to Home Depot, I carry lots of groceries in it. It just keeps on going and going. But my old one, ( '79) finally died after a billion or so miles with a blown head gasket, so I bought my "84 and traveled in it for awhile. The reason I got it was on advice of a friend in the Porsche parts business who said when I kept buying parts for my 914/6 that I needed to get an econo-box to drive when the Porsche was down. I did. And it worked so well that I drove the Rabbit more often....mostly to his parts store for Porsche parts.
But now I lust for an Audi A-3 for the all wheel drive.
My Rabbit is a Wolfsburg Edition '84 which I've driven and driven and driven. I had another Rabbit before this one that I drove across country and back several times. I camp in it (huge amounts of space), I sleep in it (truck stop showers for $5 and a short snooze and I'm on my way), I use it as a truck to go to Home Depot, I carry lots of groceries in it. It just keeps on going and going. But my old one, ( '79) finally died after a billion or so miles with a blown head gasket, so I bought my "84 and traveled in it for awhile. The reason I got it was on advice of a friend in the Porsche parts business who said when I kept buying parts for my 914/6 that I needed to get an econo-box to drive when the Porsche was down. I did. And it worked so well that I drove the Rabbit more often....mostly to his parts store for Porsche parts.
But now I lust for an Audi A-3 for the all wheel drive.