Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
09-05-2016, 03:09 PM
#1426
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We deserve better treatment from the regulators, who are wading int this mess based on Media reports and Public Opinion, not science.
I hope science will prevail in the "fix," which could improve our cars - but it's unlikely because the regulators will be predisposed to choose the solution that adversely affects our performance - to demonstrate just how horrible Diesels are. And the low information set will believe them.
I hope science will prevail in the "fix," which could improve our cars - but it's unlikely because the regulators will be predisposed to choose the solution that adversely affects our performance - to demonstrate just how horrible Diesels are. And the low information set will believe them.
This is VW's mess. Period. Not only here, in other countries too (South Korea, Australia l, UK) and the list is going to get longer. Corporate greed at its best.
09-05-2016, 04:13 PM
#1427
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VW AG's next aquisition...
It looks like VW still has enough funding to support their growth plans and coming to N. America with trucks:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswag...tar-1473089215
I hope that after this deal, there is money left on the table for the CD folks.
All the best.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswag...tar-1473089215
I hope that after this deal, there is money left on the table for the CD folks.
All the best.
09-05-2016, 04:35 PM
#1428
Instructor
We ABSOLUTELY deserve better from VW. I haven't paid $80k to regulators. Had I done that, I would be talking with them too.
This is VW's mess. Period. Not only here, in other countries too (South Korea, Australia l, UK) and the list is going to get longer. Corporate greed at its best.
This is VW's mess. Period. Not only here, in other countries too (South Korea, Australia l, UK) and the list is going to get longer. Corporate greed at its best.
And the regulators' requirement that VW fund an electric vehicle infrastructure AND change their model lineup to hybrids, before VW makes it right by their consumers (you and me).
VW has admitted it's transgressions and is working toward restitution, but the Regulators are the roadblocks now.
I don't need an electric car plug-in on every block before I see a fix for my car.
09-05-2016, 04:39 PM
#1429
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Thanks for the update.
09-05-2016, 04:50 PM
#1430
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Then you should be upset with the continual delays and roadblocks that CARB (and EPA, NY and other bandwagon-piling-oners) is placing in front of VW to fix the situation. (Australia doesn't affect us here. Each Country is dealing with the situation in their own way.)
And the regulators' requirement that VW fund an electric vehicle infrastructure AND change their model lineup to hybrids, before VW makes it right by their consumers (you and me).
VW has admitted it's transgressions and is working toward restitution, but the Regulators are the roadblocks now.
I don't need an electric car plug-in on every block before I see a fix for my car.
And the regulators' requirement that VW fund an electric vehicle infrastructure AND change their model lineup to hybrids, before VW makes it right by their consumers (you and me).
VW has admitted it's transgressions and is working toward restitution, but the Regulators are the roadblocks now.
I don't need an electric car plug-in on every block before I see a fix for my car.
So it's OK as long as they "admitted it's transgressions"? (I actually don't recall them saying mea-culpa but perhaps your standards are different then mine. A few guys quit, and then blamed the other guys, and then said "but everyone was doing it..")
VW put itself in the position that's it's in. The agencies/etc who are requiring them to make good wouldn't have any power at all to do that IF VW didn't cheat. And that's about the end of the story. No one is responsible for the problem but VW.
09-05-2016, 04:56 PM
#1431
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Things may have changed, but it was the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act that made that original requirement. It was a sticking point for a couple of French and Italian manufacturers when they left the US in the 90's, and I'm not surprised that it has been softened.
Thanks for the update.
Thanks for the update.
What Porsche could do (not saying they WILL do it) is - "We no longer want to service or warranty your vehicle. We are discontinuing parts and service for your vehicle. We will reimburse you for the full retail value of your vehicle." and do a take it or leave it stance. The vehicle owners would pretty much be powerless in this case since they would be hard pressed to show any damages or injury in this case. And attorneys wouldn't be attracted to a class-action since without damages being shown, there isn't any money to be made. Right now - VW is close to that stance with the 2.0L TDI cars... wouldn't take much more to get there.
09-05-2016, 06:04 PM
#1432
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Then you should be upset with the continual delays and roadblocks that CARB (and EPA, NY and other bandwagon-piling-oners) is placing in front of VW to fix the situation. (Australia doesn't affect us here. Each Country is dealing with the situation in their own way.)
And the regulators' requirement that VW fund an electric vehicle infrastructure AND change their model lineup to hybrids, before VW makes it right by their consumers (you and me).
VW has admitted it's transgressions and is working toward restitution, but the Regulators are the roadblocks now.
I don't need an electric car plug-in on every block before I see a fix for my car.
And the regulators' requirement that VW fund an electric vehicle infrastructure AND change their model lineup to hybrids, before VW makes it right by their consumers (you and me).
VW has admitted it's transgressions and is working toward restitution, but the Regulators are the roadblocks now.
I don't need an electric car plug-in on every block before I see a fix for my car.
EPA/CARB and other agencies have nothing to do with it. They are implementing their mandate. CARB has a lot to do with the breathable air in CA. Can they do better? No question.
VW knowingly placed these non compliant vehicles to our lap. They committed a fraud. To get monetary gain and market share.
I am talking from a comfortable position when it comes to morality. I didn't cheat. I did not pay in wooden nickels. I paid with my hard earned money . I deserve better. You might feel you do not deserve anything. I am OK with that. You do not represent me.
Once you commit a fraud, caught red handed, you can not claim any morality. Trying to pull other organizations to this mess will not change this basic fact.
Furthermore, the reason this has been taking so long is due to VW trying to shy away from its responsibility. If they had promised an option to buy back their non compliant 3.0 vehicles, this issue would have been resolved by the past court date. They are dragging it to see if they can get away with it. They have good enough engineering capacity to solve this by now had it been an easy fix. It is not (admitted by their own lawyer). Instead their solution is to render the owners to be the beta testers for a "complicated fix" with unknown long term consequences. This. is. not. fair.
Now these forums are monitored. People can side with VW to earn their long term good will. That is a choice, I recognize that.
I won't. If I did I would feel ethically challenged.
Last edited by Dr Cayenne; 09-05-2016 at 06:58 PM.
09-05-2016, 07:23 PM
#1433
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In another VERY IMPORTANT news:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelsc...o#89275d43b26f
BTW may be....just may be.... the "riddled loopholes" that the article refers to are in place due to push by German goverment by the request of VW.
Nah....sure not, VW would NEVER do such a thing (:^D
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelsc...o#89275d43b26f
BTW may be....just may be.... the "riddled loopholes" that the article refers to are in place due to push by German goverment by the request of VW.
Nah....sure not, VW would NEVER do such a thing (:^D
09-05-2016, 07:46 PM
#1434
Instructor
Stockholm Syndrome much?
So it's OK as long as they "admitted it's transgressions"? (I actually don't recall them saying mea-culpa but perhaps your standards are different then mine. A few guys quit, and then blamed the other guys, and then said "but everyone was doing it..")
VW put itself in the position that's it's in. The agencies/etc who are requiring them to make good wouldn't have any power at all to do that IF VW didn't cheat. And that's about the end of the story. No one is responsible for the problem but VW.
So it's OK as long as they "admitted it's transgressions"? (I actually don't recall them saying mea-culpa but perhaps your standards are different then mine. A few guys quit, and then blamed the other guys, and then said "but everyone was doing it..")
VW put itself in the position that's it's in. The agencies/etc who are requiring them to make good wouldn't have any power at all to do that IF VW didn't cheat. And that's about the end of the story. No one is responsible for the problem but VW.
And I don't disagree that they should make good. They should.
But the Agencies' stated requirements that VW spend several Billion $$$ on infrastructure (such as electric car plug-ins, windmills etc.) are not getting us any closer to a solution for the car owners. It's just delaying things.
Plus, requiring the cars to exceed the emission standards that were in effect at the time the cars were manufactured is also counterproductive. CARB in particular seems to think it can require VW to fix CA's air problems as a prerequisite to settling with car owners. It seems wrong to me, if not illegal (ex post facto and all that).
The regulators see that VW has gotten itself in a terrible mess, and they are happy to extract an extra pound of flesh - at the expense of the car owners.
As I said, i don't want to wait for a charging station on my block before CARB lets VW fix our cars.
09-05-2016, 08:10 PM
#1435
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VW admitted to the cheating devices in September. I don't disagree that VW put themselves in their current position. They did.
And I don't disagree that they should make good. They should.
But the Agencies' stated requirements that VW spend several Billion $$$ on infrastructure (such as electric car plug-ins, windmills etc.) are not getting us any closer to a solution for the car owners. It's just delaying things.
Plus, requiring the cars to exceed the emission standards that were in effect at the time the cars were manufactured is also counterproductive. CARB in particular seems to think it can require VW to fix CA's air problems as a prerequisite to settling with car owners. It seems wrong to me, if not illegal (ex post facto and all that).
The regulators see that VW has gotten itself in a terrible mess, and they are happy to extract an extra pound of flesh - at the expense of the car owners.
As I said, i don't want to wait for a charging station on my block before CARB lets VW fix our cars.
And I don't disagree that they should make good. They should.
But the Agencies' stated requirements that VW spend several Billion $$$ on infrastructure (such as electric car plug-ins, windmills etc.) are not getting us any closer to a solution for the car owners. It's just delaying things.
Plus, requiring the cars to exceed the emission standards that were in effect at the time the cars were manufactured is also counterproductive. CARB in particular seems to think it can require VW to fix CA's air problems as a prerequisite to settling with car owners. It seems wrong to me, if not illegal (ex post facto and all that).
The regulators see that VW has gotten itself in a terrible mess, and they are happy to extract an extra pound of flesh - at the expense of the car owners.
As I said, i don't want to wait for a charging station on my block before CARB lets VW fix our cars.
VW will willingly put all the charging stations to your block since their game plan is all electric vehicles now. And no, the agencies are not taking an extra pound of flesh at the expense of car owners as the Tdi owners are very fairly compensated, just because of "these agencies". And they are not complaining.
Who hasn't got compensated are the 3.0 owners. And the reason for that are not electrical charging stations. It was up to VW to settle this during the past court date: had they came up with an option to buyback for some owners plus a future fix for the people who wants to keep their vehicles, this would have been solved by now. Some would have already signed for the buyback - probably majority - and some would have kept their vehice for the "fix".They intentionally dragged. Not due to electrical charging stations ("these agencies" are not saying, first you have to build electrical stations and then fix the consumers problems, right?)
Read the prior article that I posted, the judge is quite fed up. People are fed up. Why - > Everybody recognizes the motive of VW. Nobody is stupid.
There is now a chance that no one will get anything according to the article that I have just posted though. If EU comission acts, the company will be backrupt.
But I won't post anything in the lines of "VW got bankrupt due to stupid EU comission". Since that would be akin to saying VW is in this mess due to CARB/EPA.
You are saying that "VW admitted to the cheating devices in September". Can you also mention that they end up doing that AFTER they have denied any wrong doing for more than a year, and fought tooth and nail till it became "not deniable anymore". Can you also mention that they accepted it so that they would not get into further trouble in US. Can you also say that they still maintain their position that there is "no cheat software" in Australia.
One last point is that you've mentioned "CARB in particular seems to think it can require VW to fix CA's air problems as a prerequisite to settling with car owners". Nobody is asking VW to fix CA's air problems. That is a misrepresentation. CARB is acting so that VW will not add further to CA's air problems. I agree that CARB has to work further to make CA air better. But maybe discrediting them is not best way to help them.
We do not want our cities to look like Paris in terms of air quality. If you claim that this has nothing to do with diesel emissions...I do not know what else to say.....maybe except this:
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/no-...-hate-diesels/
Last edited by Dr Cayenne; 09-05-2016 at 09:47 PM.
09-05-2016, 11:39 PM
#1436
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Plus, requiring the cars to exceed the emission standards that were in effect at the time the cars were manufactured is also counterproductive. CARB in particular seems to think it can require VW to fix CA's air problems as a prerequisite to settling with car owners. It seems wrong to me, if not illegal (ex post facto and all that).
The regulators see that VW has gotten itself in a terrible mess, and they are happy to extract an extra pound of flesh - at the expense of the car owners.
The regulators see that VW has gotten itself in a terrible mess, and they are happy to extract an extra pound of flesh - at the expense of the car owners.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelsc.../#6c9618537f8b
Originally Posted by Forbes
In the U.S., a somewhat tortured study by MIT claimed that VW’s defeat devices could contribute to 60 premature deaths, and the world was shocked. In Europe, the European Environment Agency has estimated that each year there are some 75,000 premature deaths due to nitrogen dioxide (NOx), which is largely created by diesel vehicles. Crickets, cough-cough. People are being lied to by a cabal of politicians and automakers that preach environmental responsibility, but practice dirt. European customers look longingly to the U.S., where Volkswagen has to buy back cheater diesels. In Europe, Volkswagen refuses to pay a single cent.
“We have a different situation here in Europe,” Volkswagen CEO Matthias Mueller told Welt am Sonntag. It definitely is. In America, Volkswagen can afford spreading a little good will among its manageable number of customers. Paying off millions of European customers would certainly bankrupt Volkswagen, “one doesn’t have to be a mathematician to see that,” Mueller said.
“We have a different situation here in Europe,” Volkswagen CEO Matthias Mueller told Welt am Sonntag. It definitely is. In America, Volkswagen can afford spreading a little good will among its manageable number of customers. Paying off millions of European customers would certainly bankrupt Volkswagen, “one doesn’t have to be a mathematician to see that,” Mueller said.
Hopefully when VW goes into bankruptcy Porsche can be saved as an independent company again, or be purchased by another large and more reputable company.
09-06-2016, 12:47 AM
#1437
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Furthermore you are held as a hostage to the outcome of this trial inorder to avoid huge finacial loss in case you are planning to trade your vehicle. The longer it takes this mess takes to finalize the longer you are trapped.
So frustrating.
09-06-2016, 12:58 AM
#1438
While I am mad at Porsche due to the depreciated value of the car far exceeding expectations and being somewhat locked in to the vehicle while this is getting figured out, it is absolutely ridiculous the free pass Ford, GM, and the rest of the "truck" makers get with their rust buckets.
As for leaving Porsche, the other options out there are lame. I kind of like not having to go get random stuff repaired on my car ALL THE TIME (looking at you BMW, Toyota)...
09-06-2016, 01:43 AM
#1439
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The other side of that coin is that once the dust settles, a decent fix (yes, I know, that may be the problem) might mean that the scarcity of the CD going forward may make them rare and sought after.
Not holding my breath, but it is possible that those who wanted a CD before the stop sale will be back in the market once a (good) fix is developed and proven.
Not holding my breath, but it is possible that those who wanted a CD before the stop sale will be back in the market once a (good) fix is developed and proven.
Sad- as TDI was one of the brands best differentiators. Not much else there, maybe the GTI, but the rest of the product line is meh.
After three Audis (A6, A4 Cab, A5 Cab), VW Jetta GLI and the Cayenne, I'm all but done with VW products. All the Audis were bombs, the Jetta is pretty good but the local dealer is terrible, and now the diesel issue- DONE. Going to be tough not to scratch my 911 itch, but at this point, just don't have the motivation to spend more money with this company.
After three Audis (A6, A4 Cab, A5 Cab), VW Jetta GLI and the Cayenne, I'm all but done with VW products. All the Audis were bombs, the Jetta is pretty good but the local dealer is terrible, and now the diesel issue- DONE. Going to be tough not to scratch my 911 itch, but at this point, just don't have the motivation to spend more money with this company.
This was a long post, and there are several answers.
No we don't know about buybacks, but Porsche engineers have proposed several fixes so far. Some have been accepted in some Countries, but the U.S. (CARB) has not yet signed off.
I am sure Porsche is working on a Plan F-L. And we don't know if whatever "fix" is approved will decrease or increase performance.
VW Dealers are beiing reimbursed for Floor Plan expenses, so I expect Porsche and Audi Dealers are, too.
The unsold, Stop Sale CD's are being (or have been) rounded up, including those pressed into service as Service Loaners - apparently some (all?) of them are being fitted with "fixes" to prove the solution to EPA, CARB etc. They must demonstrate that the Fixes are effective with real cars. This has been going on since at least April.
VW has a gag order, and is in legal battles, both from valid claims as well as frivolous claims from the Ambulance Chasers, so I wouldn't expect a lot of information from them until settlement(s) arrive. BTW, the fact that somebody filed a lawsuit has no relationship on whether VW has an effective solution.
Values - over the last several months, Book values (NADA, KBB, Black Book, Edmunds) have increased, but the market is thin so I'd expect the few sales to cause swings in reported sales prices. Our Dealer has a waiting list for used CDs, but that may be driven by anticipated "bargain" prices.
Diesels from most manufacturers (all?) are receiving extra scrutiny, and release of new models is being held by the EPA right now. We were at the M-B dealer over the weekend, and 2017 Diesels have had their hold extended again - now it's estimated to last until January (gas cars have been out for a couple of months). These are not new engines, although I don't know if the engine controls have been changed for 2017.
VW is a leader in hybrid and battery technology, so I doubt that they would leave their most lucrative markets. Although I agree that they haven't done much historically to support U.S.Dealers.
Finally, U.S. law requires that parts be available for 10 years after a vehicle stops production.
No we don't know about buybacks, but Porsche engineers have proposed several fixes so far. Some have been accepted in some Countries, but the U.S. (CARB) has not yet signed off.
I am sure Porsche is working on a Plan F-L. And we don't know if whatever "fix" is approved will decrease or increase performance.
VW Dealers are beiing reimbursed for Floor Plan expenses, so I expect Porsche and Audi Dealers are, too.
The unsold, Stop Sale CD's are being (or have been) rounded up, including those pressed into service as Service Loaners - apparently some (all?) of them are being fitted with "fixes" to prove the solution to EPA, CARB etc. They must demonstrate that the Fixes are effective with real cars. This has been going on since at least April.
VW has a gag order, and is in legal battles, both from valid claims as well as frivolous claims from the Ambulance Chasers, so I wouldn't expect a lot of information from them until settlement(s) arrive. BTW, the fact that somebody filed a lawsuit has no relationship on whether VW has an effective solution.
Values - over the last several months, Book values (NADA, KBB, Black Book, Edmunds) have increased, but the market is thin so I'd expect the few sales to cause swings in reported sales prices. Our Dealer has a waiting list for used CDs, but that may be driven by anticipated "bargain" prices.
Diesels from most manufacturers (all?) are receiving extra scrutiny, and release of new models is being held by the EPA right now. We were at the M-B dealer over the weekend, and 2017 Diesels have had their hold extended again - now it's estimated to last until January (gas cars have been out for a couple of months). These are not new engines, although I don't know if the engine controls have been changed for 2017.
VW is a leader in hybrid and battery technology, so I doubt that they would leave their most lucrative markets. Although I agree that they haven't done much historically to support U.S.Dealers.
Finally, U.S. law requires that parts be available for 10 years after a vehicle stops production.
I agree with ALL your points. To recap:
1- VAG, the only group in US with a non commercial diesel vehicle fan base is looking forward to teminate its diesel product line. This will have a negative effect as a whole in non commercial diesel vehicle market (as one of the biggest and most prominent players is out - carrying out its customer base with it) while particularly adversely affecting the future of our vehicles, being a discontinued model.
2- This will adversely affect second hand value of our cars both on the short and the long term, no question about that.
3- Depreciation far exceeds everything else in the total cost of ownership (including fuel, maintenance). The little amount of relief at the pump we get is no match for this loss.
4- What I am appalled at is the shortsightedness of this approach. People that has supported the company, paying handsomely for their products, most of them by being repeat customers, will be most adversely impacted. Porsche has the highest profit margins of any company, far higher than VW itself. How is it going to help the brand if you alleniate your customer base on the long run? I have been withholding a new purchase untill this is settled in a fair manner. The more I look into it the more I am worried that the settlement is not going to address my concerns. And I am hoping to be wrong. But what has been going on suggests otherwise.
And I know I am not the only one who feels this way. We deserve better.
1- VAG, the only group in US with a non commercial diesel vehicle fan base is looking forward to teminate its diesel product line. This will have a negative effect as a whole in non commercial diesel vehicle market (as one of the biggest and most prominent players is out - carrying out its customer base with it) while particularly adversely affecting the future of our vehicles, being a discontinued model.
2- This will adversely affect second hand value of our cars both on the short and the long term, no question about that.
3- Depreciation far exceeds everything else in the total cost of ownership (including fuel, maintenance). The little amount of relief at the pump we get is no match for this loss.
4- What I am appalled at is the shortsightedness of this approach. People that has supported the company, paying handsomely for their products, most of them by being repeat customers, will be most adversely impacted. Porsche has the highest profit margins of any company, far higher than VW itself. How is it going to help the brand if you alleniate your customer base on the long run? I have been withholding a new purchase untill this is settled in a fair manner. The more I look into it the more I am worried that the settlement is not going to address my concerns. And I am hoping to be wrong. But what has been going on suggests otherwise.
And I know I am not the only one who feels this way. We deserve better.
But now more is coming out from VW and the TDIs are done for us for awhile if not for good. Don't see what if anything will bring them back to the US market in the future....as the VW CEO seems to confirm. That likely goes for Audi and Porsche as well especially since the 3.0L diesel engines were at an even lesser amt of their production numbers.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswa...nl&date=090516
Last edited by mdrobc1213; 09-06-2016 at 02:02 AM.
09-06-2016, 10:19 AM
#1440
Regarding the future of diesels, consider that it took 30 years for them to start making a come back after the last kerfuffle in the 70s/80s. With the ever increasing regulations, do combustion engines have another 30 years?
If VAG indeed exits the diesel market here in the US, diesels are effectively done. We'll see some stragglers hang on with an option or two, but there will be an ever dwindling number of options and I just don't see another resurgence in the future.
If VAG indeed exits the diesel market here in the US, diesels are effectively done. We'll see some stragglers hang on with an option or two, but there will be an ever dwindling number of options and I just don't see another resurgence in the future.