Dr Cayenne

In no way our vehicles qualify as anything collectible. It will be an orphan vehicle and I totally agree with you they will have accelerated depreciation both in the short and the long run; the inventory numbers and such are just background noise. Who would in their right mind buy a vehicle with no continuity, tainted image and an unknown, unproven fix that forces the vehicle away from its original configuration. Would you like to volunteer to be a beta tester for something like this?

Yes they are likely to offer some form of compensation. The market will adjust and deduct that amount immediately from the current value. It always happens, manufacturer gives out an incentive, market in the second hand value deducts that and adjusts value. Right away.

So as I mentioned in the past, it is immaterial wheter our vehicles are more clean than the 2.0 tdi or not, the end result for owners are the same:
1- Heavy depreciation, the number one cost of ownership
2- Being left with an orphan vehicle with a tainted image and stigma
3- "Fix" with no known short or long term known consequences. Also realize the fix for the 2.0 Tdi accross the Atlantic is not encouraging (..a failiure so far).

The fair resolution is what 2.0 owners got: A buyback option

We deserve the same, nobody can tell me otherwise.

And no, people's emotional attachments to their vehicles do not mean anything. When they voice their opinion from that emotional point of view, that might encourage the company to get away with it. There are a lot of signs so far that they want to do just that already.

We deserve better.

skiahh

You know, you harp on this "orphaned vehicle" think like you've discovered cold fusion.

The Cayenne won't be orphaned. As someone already pointed out to you (and you've obviously ignored with your 99% blinders on), Cayennes will continue to be produced. Parts of the 958 are largely interchangeable. If - and it's a big if, at this point - they apply a fix that works, there will be parts of the engine for the forseeable future, since it's a popular engine not just in the US.

The bottom line is that all cars are orphans, by your definition. They eventually all stop being built.

The 955, 957s... are they orphans? It's not being made any more. By your logic, they are. Does that make them worthless?

Beta testing? They - CARB and EPA - will test any solution to death because they don't want to be caught with egg on their face again. So, if there is a fix agreed upon, we won't be beta testing it.

Your tangible hate for VW and Porsche - and anyone willing to give them even a sliver of benefit of the doubt, or who has the patience that you clearly lack - makes your posts mere entertainment, rather than anything useful.

Dr Cayenne

I only have tangible hate for stupidity

mdrobc1213

Skiahh...agree with your point that all cars are eventually orphaned and that they will continue to make Cayennes and thus there will be some interchange with parts. I think Dr Cayenne's point here is that he believes VW AG should offer similar options for 3.0L cars as they are doing for 2.0L car owners as both are affected by what is basically the same manner of offense/disregard. To give the 2.0L a fix and/or a buyback but not to do so for the 3.0L crowd based on the higher price point of the more luxury ownership is wrong in his eyes. Many can see that point and agree.

As far as depreciation curve right now it is subjective but I believe the point as you and others have said is all cars depreciate some quicker than others...few appreciated and the CD is not likely to be in that group. The real question here is will they depreciated quicker than normally or other Cayennes' due to their 3.0L engine. While this has yet to be seen fully; there is some validity in human nature that there will be folks who will not want to be tainted with a vehicle that is no longer produced (we're talking about the CD not the Cayenne model line in general) for the US market. While they will still be build for other markets that is true...the hassle of getting fixes and updates that meet US regs/code for the remaining US vehicle may prove to be a step too far and problematic for the average owner who wants immediate fixes and support and to not have to translate over from other markerts any updates/fixes/etc when they have or need service action for their CDs. That is the big IF here also.

But yes at some point all cars do go out of production and that affects their desirability and also availability as well. Pilots loved flying P-40 Warhawks in WWII until they came out with others to replace it. The p-51B Mustang was great but the P-51D had a better engine [I believe Allison vs Rolls Royce] and performance and thus became the pilot's choice and the USAAF's top choice. Same to be said for the Cayenne's as other models within the lineup and/or even brands will become the vehicle of choice pretty soon as this engine option fades into the lime light.

CDs will be around for a while as there are what 14k or so of them sitting around and quite a few other Audi TDIs but the lack of surety along with possible taint surrounding the scandal and decreased performance will have a negative effect. Not sure how folks can stay in denial and say it ain't so. Otherwise VW would have just told CARB and all the owners to F*ck off and there'd be no fix or buy back or anything but buyers beware. So I think those predicting collector status or some great appreciation curve are kidding themselves...if that was so I'd have had my '16 Cayenne Diesel a year ago as there wouldn't have been a stop sale (still voluntary mind you) and VW AG would still be putting $$ in the bank on the Cayenne Diesel and Audi TDI's versus abandoning the whole diesel market in the US. That is huge and says volumes to their view on what has occurred as it affect their long range planning after spending billions to promote and move TDI into the US market. They're not jumping ship for no reason or cause they think the cars will increase in value and customers will be clamoring for them like they were in 2010-2013 when you couldn't find an un-spoken for Audi Q5 at most dealers or 2014-2015 when the Macan production line was totally full and you had a year wait for one in some places! I am sure too at some point dealers will also start pushing buyers into newer and currently supported models as they always do as its easier on all parties around.

Don't hate Porsche or VW..got 2 Porsches and a VW in my driveway now..just glad none of them are TDI's or 3.0L diesels at this point.

skiahh

I don't necessarily agree that VW should treat us the same as their VW customers. I think they have to treat us BETTER and that is part of their conundrum.

Fix or buyback? Well, if they can actually fix the damn things, great! They will owe us something for the hassle, but not a buyback just because someone now feels they have a "tainted" car. If it's fixed, it's fixed. The question, of course, is, can they fix them without hurting performance and efficiency.

Will we have collectors cars? Nah... SUVs aren't collectable. But, in a few years, if this blows over and there are no more CDs available new, will the rate of our depreciation slow? Maybe. I'm not holding my breath, but there are diesel diehards out there who will still want these vehicles (again, assuming a good fix). My diesel Ram is worth considerably more than a same year gasser, for example. Add in the scarcity of the CDs and who knows what the used market will be in a few years. With a good fix, I don't think we'll be in as dire circumstances as some predict.

Now, that is predicated on a good fix, of course. If they can't do that, they owe us a buy back program that is better than the VW owners. We're their high end, high margin customers and they need to reflect that in whatever they decide to do at the point they decide the solution is a buyback. Or if they figure out a good fix, for that matter. I would suspect most of us don't feel "tainted" and want to keep their CDs; they are amazing vehicles. I could be in the minority, of course, and people do want out of them. Or people could be looking for some "easy" cash above what they'd get if they traded at untainted depreciation values, too....

gnat

Good god. You people have taken a random odd thought WAY too seriously. I even said that I didn't think it would happen.

visitador

SUVs are not collectible? Give me the original Ford Bronco, International Harvester Scout, Jeep Wagoneer....and any Jeep Wrangler

skiahh

Good point. I stand corrected!

solrac6262

Fix or buyback? Well, if they can actually fix the damn things, great! They will owe us something for the hassle, but not a buyback just because someone now feels they have a "tainted" car. If it's fixed, it's fixed. The question, of course, is, can they fix them without hurting performance and efficiency.

we Don't want a Fix Skiahh, maybe you do, we don't want to be treated better, want to be treated the same as VW customers with a buyback option period.

they cheated on us, we have the right to decide if we want a fix or a buyback.

skiahh

I think the courts and the law disagree with you, solrac. We bought the cars and the only guarantee is through the warranty. If they can fix them through that, they will.

As always, I could be wrong, but I don't think there is any right for customers to decide they want a buyback. Just imagine if that were the law and everyone who gets remorse invented some slight (small or large, such as cheating!) and demanded a company buy back a product.

That said, you could always try a lemon law action before this whole thing gets settled. Some lawyer could possibly make a case to force a buyback that way. It might be better or it might be worse, assuming you could get a judge to declare your car a lemon. They certainly are defective and it's been over a year since they discovered the problem. Could work....

But none of has the "right" to determine if we want a fix or buyback applied to some product we've bought. Perhaps the solution they arrive at will offer us that choice, like the VW customers, but if they develop a suitable fix, under the law, it's their right to attempt to fix our cars. If they can't....

And if they do and cripple the things, that's another lawsuit entirely, which they are trying to avoid.

And even if they fix them without crippling them, there are people who will feel tainted (or see an opportunity) and sue for a buyback anyway, individually or as a class.

Dr Cayenne

You never will get it don't you. I did not expect you would. I will give it a try, just for the general audience (although I am sure most are aware about what is going on).

The buying and selling process is dictated on both parties agreeing about the transacation when the product is able to perform its duties in their original configuration. Complying rules or regulations are a given, otherwise the product can not (or should not be) sold. You agree to buy the product based on this promise by the manufacturer. Manufacturaing defect can happen down the line, it is UNINTENTIONAL, and will be taken care through warranty or goodwill of the company.

Here VW sold us a product KNOWING ALL TOO WELL won't be able to pass the current emissions. Hence there is no manufacturing defect here. The cars work perfectly in their original config and do not pose a threat to the user.

I bought this vehicle based on VW's promise that it will pass the current emissions. This is based on the ORIGINAL contract between me and the company. They PROMISED it would, knowing that it won't be able to. They LIED/CHEATED at the time I bought the vehicle. The deceit happened AT THE TIME I bought the vehicle. It is not a technical defect that happened down the line. They sold it under false pretenses. KNOWINGLY. In the first place. So HELL YEAH I will demand a buy back.

It is not a technically defective product, it is not. It is product that is DESIGNED IN THE FIRST PLACE to behave like this. And the company lied and did not disclose me about it. So a FIX does not address these issues. For the majority, this not hard to comprehend.

" I don't think there is any right for customers to decide they want a buyback". Of course you won't, you have no clue what is right or wrong. Although I am not sure you will not take a place in the line if a buy back happens, probably much ahead of me....which is fine.

What is not fine is that you are disrespecting other owners rightful choicess, trying to imply they are opportunists and such (although frankly I do not care what you think or say). But you have no right to.

"As always, I could be wrong", of course you are.

Lets come down to this "orphan vehice" deal. Yes this is an orphan vehicle and it will be priced as such in the market. A 912 will never be as valuable as a 911 as Porsche decided to go along with a 6 cylinder engine down the line....hence there is no CONTINUITY of the 4 cylinder line. So they are DISPROPORTINATELY cheaper compared to 911s of their time. Much more than their initial price difference. Keep dreaming this is going to be collectible BTW.......which is fine...

Tainted vehicle...hell yes. This is a product that is a subject in one of the biggest scandals of automative industry. And it is on the news almost every day. If this does not qualify or make it a "tainted vehicle", I do not know what will. Just because it is a Porsche product does not give it a free pass or make it go away no matter howmuch you are hoping/dreaming/cheerleading for it. That is wishful thinking. If anything, buyers in this range are generally more careful when it comes to their vehicle choices, unless they are looking for a screaming deal in the expense of you, the original owner.

And I did not say or imply that Cayenne is going to discontinue. You are bringing it to your argument in a pathetic attempt to manipulate......which again is...fine

PJ Cayenne

Damn Doc- while your points are valid- I too am royally pissed at the prospect of any fix- you need to dial down the language on your responses to positive contributors to this forum. Most of us can disagree without getting snarky. We agree on content, but your style is rough. This ain't a wrestling forum.
Thx.

Dr Cayenne

Will try my best. Promise. I know this is just a car.

PJ Cayenne

Sounds good. And it is an expensive car at that. At this point I'm holding off on a 991 purchase until I understand the new deal. No chance they deserve any more of my money until I'm happy with the CD outcome.

Dr Cayenne

Same here, I was planning to replace this with Panamera GTS when the warrany expired. The outcome of this trial will be instrumental in my decision.