The 997 GT3/RS Cars For Sale Thread...
01-05-2018, 04:03 PM
#1441
Burning Brakes
Over rev of 2 or 1 can be considered an error in any range - anything 3 or over is entirely possible and should be considered correct. Just as important is at how many hours the last recorded event occurred v. how many current hours. Also if the engine has been rebuilt that is a consideration.
Here is a link to a 'secret' page that is an excerpt from our DME inspection report analysis package. It represents Porsche's take on this issue ... https://**********/overspeed/
Here is a link to a 'secret' page that is an excerpt from our DME inspection report analysis package. It represents Porsche's take on this issue ... https://**********/overspeed/
Range 1 – Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded – engine damage possible
Range 2 – Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded – engine damage possible
I thought ranges 1-2 were near redline and bouncing off redline, respectively vs. exceeding permitted engine speed.
01-05-2018, 04:27 PM
#1442
Rennlist Member
^^^^ This phrasing is verbatim from the PIWIS printout. Similar to this:
Damaged unit parts due to high engine speed.
The information below is intended to help you to evaluate engine damage, which may occur as a result of one or more overspeed events. You can also use the values entered in the VAL to improve the assessment process for granting pre-owned car warranties, for example, and to examine entitlements for carrying out repairs under warranty.
Engines are designed to operate at a maximum permitted speed. This engine speed is not exceeded when the vehicle is driven normally. However, driving and operating problems (e.g. “changing to the wrong gear” on vehicles with manual transmission) or manipulation (e.g. tuning) can cause the maximum permitted engine speed to be exceeded when the vehicle is driven.
Overspeed events are stored in the DME control unit. The following values are also recorded:
- Number of ignition attempts in each overspeed range 1), and,
- Status of the hourmeter during the last overspeed event 2).
1) Overspeed range = Defined rev ranges with classification of expected engine damage, e.g. engine damage possible, ... probable, ... very probable, engine damage has generally occurred; see section ⇒ 'Rev ranges'.
2) For technical reasons, overspeed events are entered in a preset time interval. As a result, there may be entries in a higher rev range (e.g. range 2), while no entries are stored in the lower range.
Typical faults and symptoms as a result of overspeed events may include the following:
* Damaged valves and/or pistons (impact marks on the valve, valve impressions on the piston, valve bent).
* Cylinder liner damage (even “piston seizure”).
* Damaged or displaced connecting rod bearings.
* Loosened or loose fastening screw(s) on the crankshaft pulley.
* Loosened or loose fastening screw(s) on the camshaft gear.
* Loosened or loose connecting rod bolts.
* Cracked timing chain(s).
* Changed timing.
* Irreparably damaged clutch elements (pressure plate and/or drive plate).
* Vibrations and/or engine imbalance due to irreparably damaged clutch elements.
* Vibrations around the transmission.
* Defective synchronisation.
Information
If such faults or symptoms are present together with engine damage, the VAL that was created must be checked for overspeed entries.
If overspeed entries are found and if the difference between the current hourmeter and the status when the last overspeed event was recorded is less than 50 operating hours, there is a high probability that the damage was caused by overspeed event(s).
The value “50 operating hours” should be seen as a guide. The possibility of engine damage occurring much later due to previous overspeed event(s) cannot be ruled out.
Rev ranges - 997 GT3:
Create the VAL before deleting the fault memory. Overspeed events are documented as follows in the VAL:
Rev range 1: 8,400 -1 ... to 9,200 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 2: 9,200 -1 ... to 9,400 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 3: 9,400 -1 ... to 9,600 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 4: 9,600 -1 ... to 10,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed clearly exceeded; engine damage probable.
Rev range 5: 10,000 -1 ... to 11,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed very clearly exceeded; engine damage very probable.
Rev range 6: over 11,000 -1
⇒ Engine damage has generally occurred.
Information
Before starting engine repairs and submitting a warranty claim or granting a pre-owned car warranty:
In the event of overspeed events in range 4 – 6, we recommend that you contact the Technical Hotline before starting repairs or granting a pre-owned car warranty in order to find out how to proceed and agree on warranty entitlements.
Damaged unit parts due to high engine speed.
The information below is intended to help you to evaluate engine damage, which may occur as a result of one or more overspeed events. You can also use the values entered in the VAL to improve the assessment process for granting pre-owned car warranties, for example, and to examine entitlements for carrying out repairs under warranty.
Engines are designed to operate at a maximum permitted speed. This engine speed is not exceeded when the vehicle is driven normally. However, driving and operating problems (e.g. “changing to the wrong gear” on vehicles with manual transmission) or manipulation (e.g. tuning) can cause the maximum permitted engine speed to be exceeded when the vehicle is driven.
Overspeed events are stored in the DME control unit. The following values are also recorded:
- Number of ignition attempts in each overspeed range 1), and,
- Status of the hourmeter during the last overspeed event 2).
1) Overspeed range = Defined rev ranges with classification of expected engine damage, e.g. engine damage possible, ... probable, ... very probable, engine damage has generally occurred; see section ⇒ 'Rev ranges'.
2) For technical reasons, overspeed events are entered in a preset time interval. As a result, there may be entries in a higher rev range (e.g. range 2), while no entries are stored in the lower range.
Typical faults and symptoms as a result of overspeed events may include the following:
* Damaged valves and/or pistons (impact marks on the valve, valve impressions on the piston, valve bent).
* Cylinder liner damage (even “piston seizure”).
* Damaged or displaced connecting rod bearings.
* Loosened or loose fastening screw(s) on the crankshaft pulley.
* Loosened or loose fastening screw(s) on the camshaft gear.
* Loosened or loose connecting rod bolts.
* Cracked timing chain(s).
* Changed timing.
* Irreparably damaged clutch elements (pressure plate and/or drive plate).
* Vibrations and/or engine imbalance due to irreparably damaged clutch elements.
* Vibrations around the transmission.
* Defective synchronisation.
Information
If such faults or symptoms are present together with engine damage, the VAL that was created must be checked for overspeed entries.
If overspeed entries are found and if the difference between the current hourmeter and the status when the last overspeed event was recorded is less than 50 operating hours, there is a high probability that the damage was caused by overspeed event(s).
The value “50 operating hours” should be seen as a guide. The possibility of engine damage occurring much later due to previous overspeed event(s) cannot be ruled out.
Rev ranges - 997 GT3:
Create the VAL before deleting the fault memory. Overspeed events are documented as follows in the VAL:
Rev range 1: 8,400 -1 ... to 9,200 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 2: 9,200 -1 ... to 9,400 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 3: 9,400 -1 ... to 9,600 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 4: 9,600 -1 ... to 10,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed clearly exceeded; engine damage probable.
Rev range 5: 10,000 -1 ... to 11,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed very clearly exceeded; engine damage very probable.
Rev range 6: over 11,000 -1
⇒ Engine damage has generally occurred.
Information
Before starting engine repairs and submitting a warranty claim or granting a pre-owned car warranty:
In the event of overspeed events in range 4 – 6, we recommend that you contact the Technical Hotline before starting repairs or granting a pre-owned car warranty in order to find out how to proceed and agree on warranty entitlements.
01-05-2018, 04:36 PM
#1443
Burning Brakes
Is the following accurate in this report?
Range 1 – Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded – engine damage possible
Range 2 – Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded – engine damage possible
I thought ranges 1-2 were near redline and bouncing off redline, respectively vs. exceeding permitted engine speed.
Range 1 – Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded – engine damage possible
Range 2 – Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded – engine damage possible
I thought ranges 1-2 were near redline and bouncing off redline, respectively vs. exceeding permitted engine speed.
When I refer to 'Over rev of 2 or 1 can be considered an error in any range - anything 3 or over is entirely possible and should be considered correct.' I am talking about ignitions - I should have been more clear about that. The reference to 3 ignitions is that 3 ignitions are required for 1 rev so less than 3 ignitions might be a software error. It is not possible to know for certain.
I think what you are asking is can you have overspeed ignitions in range 1 and range 2 and answer is yes. Theoretically for any engine the lowest rpm in range 1 is redline. Overspeed events are ignitions that occur above that rpm. The ranges are provided in an attempt to provide data points within which to generally estimate what the effects of those ignitions might be. Statements like 'engine damage possible' are statements of what those effects might be.
To create time estimate > RPM/60x3/observedignitions = time in seconds. Using high and low in range gives you min and max time. The lower the RPM the more time spent.
01-05-2018, 04:47 PM
#1444
Burning Brakes
Well let me make sure I answer the question you are asking given my previous post.
When I refer to 'Over rev of 2 or 1 can be considered an error in any range - anything 3 or over is entirely possible and should be considered correct.' I am talking about ignitions - I should have been more clear about that. The reference to 3 ignitions is that 3 ignitions are required for 1 rev so less than 3 ignitions might be a software error. It is not possible to know for certain.
I think what you are asking is can you have overspeed ignitions in range 1 and range 2 and answer is yes. Theoretically for any engine the lowest rpm in range 1 is redline. Overspeed events are ignitions that occur above that rpm. The ranges are provided in an attempt to provide data points within which to generally estimate what the effects of those ignitions might be. Statements like 'engine damage possible' are statements of what those effects might be.
To create time estimate > RPM/60x3/observedignitions = time in seconds. Using high and low in range gives you min and max time. The lower the RPM the more time spent.
When I refer to 'Over rev of 2 or 1 can be considered an error in any range - anything 3 or over is entirely possible and should be considered correct.' I am talking about ignitions - I should have been more clear about that. The reference to 3 ignitions is that 3 ignitions are required for 1 rev so less than 3 ignitions might be a software error. It is not possible to know for certain.
I think what you are asking is can you have overspeed ignitions in range 1 and range 2 and answer is yes. Theoretically for any engine the lowest rpm in range 1 is redline. Overspeed events are ignitions that occur above that rpm. The ranges are provided in an attempt to provide data points within which to generally estimate what the effects of those ignitions might be. Statements like 'engine damage possible' are statements of what those effects might be.
To create time estimate > RPM/60x3/observedignitions = time in seconds. Using high and low in range gives you min and max time. The lower the RPM the more time spent.
01-05-2018, 04:53 PM
#1445
Burning Brakes
^^^^ This phrasing is verbatim from the PIWIS printout. Similar to this:
Damaged unit parts due to high engine speed.
The information below is intended to help you to evaluate engine damage, which may occur as a result of one or more overspeed events. You can also use the values entered in the VAL to improve the assessment process for granting pre-owned car warranties, for example, and to examine entitlements for carrying out repairs under warranty.
Engines are designed to operate at a maximum permitted speed. This engine speed is not exceeded when the vehicle is driven normally. However, driving and operating problems (e.g. “changing to the wrong gear” on vehicles with manual transmission) or manipulation (e.g. tuning) can cause the maximum permitted engine speed to be exceeded when the vehicle is driven.
Overspeed events are stored in the DME control unit. The following values are also recorded:
- Number of ignition attempts in each overspeed range 1), and,
- Status of the hourmeter during the last overspeed event 2).
1) Overspeed range = Defined rev ranges with classification of expected engine damage, e.g. engine damage possible, ... probable, ... very probable, engine damage has generally occurred; see section ⇒ 'Rev ranges'.
2) For technical reasons, overspeed events are entered in a preset time interval. As a result, there may be entries in a higher rev range (e.g. range 2), while no entries are stored in the lower range.
Typical faults and symptoms as a result of overspeed events may include the following:
* Damaged valves and/or pistons (impact marks on the valve, valve impressions on the piston, valve bent).
* Cylinder liner damage (even “piston seizure”).
* Damaged or displaced connecting rod bearings.
* Loosened or loose fastening screw(s) on the crankshaft pulley.
* Loosened or loose fastening screw(s) on the camshaft gear.
* Loosened or loose connecting rod bolts.
* Cracked timing chain(s).
* Changed timing.
* Irreparably damaged clutch elements (pressure plate and/or drive plate).
* Vibrations and/or engine imbalance due to irreparably damaged clutch elements.
* Vibrations around the transmission.
* Defective synchronisation.
Information
If such faults or symptoms are present together with engine damage, the VAL that was created must be checked for overspeed entries.
If overspeed entries are found and if the difference between the current hourmeter and the status when the last overspeed event was recorded is less than 50 operating hours, there is a high probability that the damage was caused by overspeed event(s).
The value “50 operating hours” should be seen as a guide. The possibility of engine damage occurring much later due to previous overspeed event(s) cannot be ruled out.
Rev ranges - 997 GT3:
Create the VAL before deleting the fault memory. Overspeed events are documented as follows in the VAL:
Rev range 1: 8,400 -1 ... to 9,200 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 2: 9,200 -1 ... to 9,400 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 3: 9,400 -1 ... to 9,600 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 4: 9,600 -1 ... to 10,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed clearly exceeded; engine damage probable.
Rev range 5: 10,000 -1 ... to 11,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed very clearly exceeded; engine damage very probable.
Rev range 6: over 11,000 -1
⇒ Engine damage has generally occurred.
Information
Before starting engine repairs and submitting a warranty claim or granting a pre-owned car warranty:
In the event of overspeed events in range 4 – 6, we recommend that you contact the Technical Hotline before starting repairs or granting a pre-owned car warranty in order to find out how to proceed and agree on warranty entitlements.
Damaged unit parts due to high engine speed.
The information below is intended to help you to evaluate engine damage, which may occur as a result of one or more overspeed events. You can also use the values entered in the VAL to improve the assessment process for granting pre-owned car warranties, for example, and to examine entitlements for carrying out repairs under warranty.
Engines are designed to operate at a maximum permitted speed. This engine speed is not exceeded when the vehicle is driven normally. However, driving and operating problems (e.g. “changing to the wrong gear” on vehicles with manual transmission) or manipulation (e.g. tuning) can cause the maximum permitted engine speed to be exceeded when the vehicle is driven.
Overspeed events are stored in the DME control unit. The following values are also recorded:
- Number of ignition attempts in each overspeed range 1), and,
- Status of the hourmeter during the last overspeed event 2).
1) Overspeed range = Defined rev ranges with classification of expected engine damage, e.g. engine damage possible, ... probable, ... very probable, engine damage has generally occurred; see section ⇒ 'Rev ranges'.
2) For technical reasons, overspeed events are entered in a preset time interval. As a result, there may be entries in a higher rev range (e.g. range 2), while no entries are stored in the lower range.
Typical faults and symptoms as a result of overspeed events may include the following:
* Damaged valves and/or pistons (impact marks on the valve, valve impressions on the piston, valve bent).
* Cylinder liner damage (even “piston seizure”).
* Damaged or displaced connecting rod bearings.
* Loosened or loose fastening screw(s) on the crankshaft pulley.
* Loosened or loose fastening screw(s) on the camshaft gear.
* Loosened or loose connecting rod bolts.
* Cracked timing chain(s).
* Changed timing.
* Irreparably damaged clutch elements (pressure plate and/or drive plate).
* Vibrations and/or engine imbalance due to irreparably damaged clutch elements.
* Vibrations around the transmission.
* Defective synchronisation.
Information
If such faults or symptoms are present together with engine damage, the VAL that was created must be checked for overspeed entries.
If overspeed entries are found and if the difference between the current hourmeter and the status when the last overspeed event was recorded is less than 50 operating hours, there is a high probability that the damage was caused by overspeed event(s).
The value “50 operating hours” should be seen as a guide. The possibility of engine damage occurring much later due to previous overspeed event(s) cannot be ruled out.
Rev ranges - 997 GT3:
Create the VAL before deleting the fault memory. Overspeed events are documented as follows in the VAL:
Rev range 1: 8,400 -1 ... to 9,200 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 2: 9,200 -1 ... to 9,400 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 3: 9,400 -1 ... to 9,600 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 4: 9,600 -1 ... to 10,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed clearly exceeded; engine damage probable.
Rev range 5: 10,000 -1 ... to 11,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed very clearly exceeded; engine damage very probable.
Rev range 6: over 11,000 -1
⇒ Engine damage has generally occurred.
Information
Before starting engine repairs and submitting a warranty claim or granting a pre-owned car warranty:
In the event of overspeed events in range 4 – 6, we recommend that you contact the Technical Hotline before starting repairs or granting a pre-owned car warranty in order to find out how to proceed and agree on warranty entitlements.
01-05-2018, 04:56 PM
#1446
Burning Brakes
Well this thread is about 997 GT3's. But yes there are theoretically no overspeed events with PDK.
01-05-2018, 05:07 PM
#1447
Burning Brakes
I think this report provides a good overall explanation, particularly regarding Ranges 1 & 2. Also interesting is the bolded comment about ignoring the report for warranty purposes on PDK equipped cars, even in the unlikely event of a range 6 rev.
I think some of the parameters are combined as well. For example, the redlines are different for 997.1 GT3s and Turbos vs. 997.2s. But I think they are showing the .1 values. Although 9k would be well over redline on a 997 GT3 if that's the true range 1 value.
http://www.911virgin.com/porsche/rev-range-information/
I think some of the parameters are combined as well. For example, the redlines are different for 997.1 GT3s and Turbos vs. 997.2s. But I think they are showing the .1 values. Although 9k would be well over redline on a 997 GT3 if that's the true range 1 value.
http://www.911virgin.com/porsche/rev-range-information/
01-05-2018, 05:08 PM
#1448
Burning Brakes
01-05-2018, 05:52 PM
#1449
Instructor
Is range 1 actually at redline? Meaning if I were to accelerate in 1st gear and bounce off the rev limiter it would count as an over rev event? According to the link posted in the previous email, range 1 for the 997 GT3 is between 9000 - 9200 RPM. I thought the GT3 redline was 8400, so wouldn't the spark/fuel be cut by the rev limiter well before range 1 occurred (when accelerating, not a money shift)?
01-05-2018, 06:15 PM
#1450
Burning Brakes
Is range 1 actually at redline? Meaning if I were to accelerate in 1st gear and bounce off the rev limiter it would count as an over rev event? According to the link posted in the previous email, range 1 for the 997 GT3 is between 9000 - 9200 RPM. I thought the GT3 redline was 8400, so wouldn't the spark/fuel be cut by the rev limiter well before range 1 occurred (when accelerating, not a money shift)?
But I'm unsure as well by the 9k GT3 range 1 value. Perhaps those are typos or represent the 991 values vs. 997 since it would be contrary to their above quote about Range 1 and 2.
01-06-2018, 04:47 PM
#1451
Trucker
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thanks Jack, Flachbau & nwGTS for the excellent information.
I also gathered a few things from the many youtube video's I could watch on 997 launch reviews, and heard several say slightly less understeer in the 7.2, slightly better front end grip, and plenty of just seat-of-pants excitement during gen 2 release hype.
Several features do catch the eye, such as dynamic engine mounts, front axle lift (for my driveway this is a must-have), and the addition of PSM.
But I would also prefer to have 5 lug wheels, as I do wrench myself as well,... and I am not concerned about investment protection, nor adding miles. It will be driven,... plenty.
In the end, as you say, it boils down to budget, and examples available for sale at the time of pulling the trigger.
Thanks again,
=Steve
I also gathered a few things from the many youtube video's I could watch on 997 launch reviews, and heard several say slightly less understeer in the 7.2, slightly better front end grip, and plenty of just seat-of-pants excitement during gen 2 release hype.
Several features do catch the eye, such as dynamic engine mounts, front axle lift (for my driveway this is a must-have), and the addition of PSM.
But I would also prefer to have 5 lug wheels, as I do wrench myself as well,... and I am not concerned about investment protection, nor adding miles. It will be driven,... plenty.
In the end, as you say, it boils down to budget, and examples available for sale at the time of pulling the trigger.
Thanks again,
=Steve
You will love the sound of the exhaust on the GT3...I have a cargraphic on my 964 Turbo, but it is still a "turbo"...
Less than a year ago I bought a 1,000 miles 2011 GT3RS.
I would buy the 997.2GT3 or RS if I were you. You can buy a wrench for CL and move on, no big deal...your next other Porsche is probably going to be a CL.
I think that you would love PCCB IMO. Exhaust is a must.
I'd recommend an RS versus a GT3, but that is up to you.
I have 3 of these 997GTs now, and 10 years on 5 997's now. PM if you have any Q's.
01-06-2018, 04:50 PM
#1452
Trucker
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
bweSteve...I should also add that 964 Turbos are the prettiest Porsche to look at (in my opinion), but you will absolutely love the 997GT3/RS...there is no doubt in my mind that this is something that you will want to do. They are new enough but still old enough to have some soul.
01-06-2018, 05:03 PM
#1453
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by switchcars
There were only 5 Mexico Blue 997 GT3s produced for North America. 3 in 2010, 2 in 2011. All three of the 2010s have PCCBs, neither of the 2011s do. Three are in CA, two in AZ. One of the 2011s has been wrecked.
There are also four Riviera Blue GT3s if you want to open up your search to that color.
Contact me if you'd like to retain my services to scare up a car.
There are also four Riviera Blue GT3s if you want to open up your search to that color.
Contact me if you'd like to retain my services to scare up a car.
01-07-2018, 03:32 AM
#1454
Rennlist Member
Does anyone know any history on this RS? Any issues and past stories?
Thanks for the help.
https://scottsdale.porschedealer.com...+Black+1128296
Thanks for the help.
https://scottsdale.porschedealer.com...+Black+1128296
01-07-2018, 10:52 AM
#1455
Racer
It's been at Scottsdale Porsche for at least 6 months.
Needs a good wax. Lite scratches everywhere. Probably from a dusty cover on and off.
Notice the black rockers and splitter are painted red.....not sure why but looks odd. It's seems to have a little track patina. Over all nice car. Nothing blaring at first glance.
CJ has a white one at the Mclaren
store. Saw it yesterday at CC. I prefer the white the car looked great with silver wheels red graphics.
I live close by if anyone wants detailed pics I drive by the dealership almost daily.
Needs a good wax. Lite scratches everywhere. Probably from a dusty cover on and off.
Notice the black rockers and splitter are painted red.....not sure why but looks odd. It's seems to have a little track patina. Over all nice car. Nothing blaring at first glance.
CJ has a white one at the Mclaren
store. Saw it yesterday at CC. I prefer the white the car looked great with silver wheels red graphics.
I live close by if anyone wants detailed pics I drive by the dealership almost daily.