The 997 GT3/RS Cars For Sale Thread...
09-12-2019, 12:53 AM
#2941
Drifting
In regard to BAT, my feeling is buyers think it’s like a street price and the most accurate way to asses a cars REAL value because their buyers. Sellers don’t agree and say great/clean examples from private parties and collections are better cars and worth more. The best cars certainly don’t end up on BAT? Any thoughts Doug?
Last edited by Mr. Adair; 09-12-2019 at 01:20 AM.
09-12-2019, 01:19 AM
#2942
Banned
Yes and no. You have to remember it’s an auction. I’m sure you paid some attention to this years Monterey consortium. The outcome was significantly lower with fewer bids and equal amount of no-sells. Why is BAT any different? It isn’t. In fact, it’s far more opportunistic to those not willing to register bidder association fees and the auction lasts SEVEN days.
Regarding buying something? It all comes down to what a buyer is willing to pay with minimal oversight. You mentioned not knowing the seller. This! You’re placing a significant premium on said vehicle. Well... There you have the valuation right there that most bidding “assume” into the cost of whatever they’re buying.
Regarding buying something? It all comes down to what a buyer is willing to pay with minimal oversight. You mentioned not knowing the seller. This! You’re placing a significant premium on said vehicle. Well... There you have the valuation right there that most bidding “assume” into the cost of whatever they’re buying.
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09-12-2019, 01:44 AM
#2943
Drifting
Yes and no. You have to remember it’s an auction. I’m sure you paid some attention to this years Monterey consortium. The outcome was significantly lower with fewer bids and equal amount of no-sells. Why is BAT any different? It isn’t. In fact, it’s far more opportunistic to those not willing to register bidder association fees and the auction lasts SEVEN days.
Regarding buying something? It all comes down to what a buyer is willing to pay with minimal oversight. You mentioned not knowing the seller. This! You’re placing a significant premium on said vehicle. Well... There you have the valuation right there that most bidding “assume” into the cost of whatever they’re buying.
Regarding buying something? It all comes down to what a buyer is willing to pay with minimal oversight. You mentioned not knowing the seller. This! You’re placing a significant premium on said vehicle. Well... There you have the valuation right there that most bidding “assume” into the cost of whatever they’re buying.
But a seller with a great GT collection who wants to chisel off two of his best 7.1RS’s isn’t going to list them on BAT to save fees is he?
09-12-2019, 03:17 AM
#2944
Rennlist Member
Why not? Because he'd rather burden his net proceeds with total 20-30% commission paid by him and the buyer to the auction house vs flat $5k paid by the buyer at BaT? There have been many cars chiseled off of collections at BaT. Buyers have seven days to do their due diligence (30 days for BaT premium listings). I never understood why someone would look down on BaT as some place for second rate cars with "stories". It's a place where cash meets cars, just like any other, except with features and commissions that are decimating the old-school auction market.
09-12-2019, 08:00 AM
#2945
My take on BAT is that there are some cars that are going to be the best of the best and some cars with problems. Just like if you walk down to your local dealers used car section you may get a good car or you may get a bad car. However, I couldn’t buy a car without myself or someone I really trusted (like Switchcars) putting eyes on it for me and doing a thorough look over. BAT has such a wide variety of sellers. Some that won’t post a DME (see orange .2 GT3) and some that have hundreds of pictures with DME, paint meter, every imperfection etc. Then on top of that, there are only so many people that know about BAT. All of us in the enthusiast community do, but if you have just wanted a GT3 for many years and want a prime example and aren’t someone that is truly involved in the community, you will probably be more interested in paying someone like Doug to find a car for you and continue to live your busy life, making money at work and spending time with your family.
I think that directionally, you can look at BAT and see where the market is going. For instance, if 5 years ago, 10 GT3’s all sold for $100k and now they are all selling for $90k, you can make a decent guess that the market has softened. But let’s say this car has a reserve of $88k and someone bids to that, I can’t say that a GT3 like that is actually worth $88k. Even at $92k with buyers premium. It may be worth more it may be worth less. But I would trust Doug’s assessment on the market more as far as an actual fair selling price or what is happening in general. I know a month or so ago, he gave mileage ranges and prices that these cars should be going for.
I think that directionally, you can look at BAT and see where the market is going. For instance, if 5 years ago, 10 GT3’s all sold for $100k and now they are all selling for $90k, you can make a decent guess that the market has softened. But let’s say this car has a reserve of $88k and someone bids to that, I can’t say that a GT3 like that is actually worth $88k. Even at $92k with buyers premium. It may be worth more it may be worth less. But I would trust Doug’s assessment on the market more as far as an actual fair selling price or what is happening in general. I know a month or so ago, he gave mileage ranges and prices that these cars should be going for.
09-12-2019, 08:59 AM
#2946
Race Car
09-12-2019, 10:10 AM
#2947
Drifting
Why not? Because he'd rather burden his net proceeds with total 20-30% commission paid by him and the buyer to the auction house vs flat $5k paid by the buyer at BaT? There have been many cars chiseled off of collections at BaT. Buyers have seven days to do their due diligence (30 days for BaT premium listings). I never understood why someone would look down on BaT as some place for second rate cars with "stories". It's a place where cash meets cars, just like any other, except with features and commissions that are decimating the old-school auction market.
09-12-2019, 10:25 AM
#2948
Rennlist Member
My take on BAT is that there are some cars that are going to be the best of the best and some cars with problems. Just like if you walk down to your local dealers used car section you may get a good car or you may get a bad car. However, I couldn’t buy a car without myself or someone I really trusted (like Switchcars) putting eyes on it for me and doing a thorough look over. BAT has such a wide variety of sellers. Some that won’t post a DME (see orange .2 GT3) and some that have hundreds of pictures with DME, paint meter, every imperfection etc. Then on top of that, there are only so many people that know about BAT. All of us in the enthusiast community do, but if you have just wanted a GT3 for many years and want a prime example and aren’t someone that is truly involved in the community, you will probably be more interested in paying someone like Doug to find a car for you and continue to live your busy life, making money at work and spending time with your family.
I think that directionally, you can look at BAT and see where the market is going. For instance, if 5 years ago, 10 GT3’s all sold for $100k and now they are all selling for $90k, you can make a decent guess that the market has softened. But let’s say this car has a reserve of $88k and someone bids to that, I can’t say that a GT3 like that is actually worth $88k. Even at $92k with buyers premium. It may be worth more it may be worth less. But I would trust Doug’s assessment on the market more as far as an actual fair selling price or what is happening in general. I know a month or so ago, he gave mileage ranges and prices that these cars should be going for.
I think that directionally, you can look at BAT and see where the market is going. For instance, if 5 years ago, 10 GT3’s all sold for $100k and now they are all selling for $90k, you can make a decent guess that the market has softened. But let’s say this car has a reserve of $88k and someone bids to that, I can’t say that a GT3 like that is actually worth $88k. Even at $92k with buyers premium. It may be worth more it may be worth less. But I would trust Doug’s assessment on the market more as far as an actual fair selling price or what is happening in general. I know a month or so ago, he gave mileage ranges and prices that these cars should be going for.
09-12-2019, 11:13 AM
#2949
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BaT is A market, not THE market. It is quickly become an authoritative market, but every data point must be taken within the whole, and not all data points are legitimate, including some at the big auction houses.
Every car of mine that has not met reserve on BaT has sold for higher elsewhere, with some effort. I've sold some there for what I felt to be above market, and some for what I felt to be below market. I've bought a few on there that went for wholesale and resold them elsewhere. The red 997.1 GT3 that sold on BaT last week was indeed purchased by a dealer/reseller.
To know the market fully requires an intimate knowledge of WHY something sold for the price it did. Great example is that PTS Orange one on BaT. Buyers could use that data point to say that the market is crashing, but we all know that it was terribly represented. There are many of these hidden stories with cars at the big name auctions as well, and those stories don't get discussed on a public forum, the cars just sell for low dollars or don't sell at all.
Every car of mine that has not met reserve on BaT has sold for higher elsewhere, with some effort. I've sold some there for what I felt to be above market, and some for what I felt to be below market. I've bought a few on there that went for wholesale and resold them elsewhere. The red 997.1 GT3 that sold on BaT last week was indeed purchased by a dealer/reseller.
To know the market fully requires an intimate knowledge of WHY something sold for the price it did. Great example is that PTS Orange one on BaT. Buyers could use that data point to say that the market is crashing, but we all know that it was terribly represented. There are many of these hidden stories with cars at the big name auctions as well, and those stories don't get discussed on a public forum, the cars just sell for low dollars or don't sell at all.
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09-12-2019, 12:36 PM
#2950
Drifting
BaT is A market, not THE market. It is quickly become an authoritative market, but every data point must be taken within the whole, and not all data points are legitimate, including some at the big auction houses.
Every car of mine that has not met reserve on BaT has sold for higher elsewhere, with some effort. I've sold some there for what I felt to be above market, and some for what I felt to be below market. I've bought a few on there that went for wholesale and resold them elsewhere. The red 997.1 GT3 that sold on BaT last week was indeed purchased by a dealer/reseller.
To know the market fully requires an intimate knowledge of WHY something sold for the price it did. Great example is that PTS Orange one on BaT. Buyers could use that data point to say that the market is crashing, but we all know that it was terribly represented. There are many of these hidden stories with cars at the big name auctions as well, and those stories don't get discussed on a public forum, the cars just sell for low dollars or don't sell at all.
Every car of mine that has not met reserve on BaT has sold for higher elsewhere, with some effort. I've sold some there for what I felt to be above market, and some for what I felt to be below market. I've bought a few on there that went for wholesale and resold them elsewhere. The red 997.1 GT3 that sold on BaT last week was indeed purchased by a dealer/reseller.
To know the market fully requires an intimate knowledge of WHY something sold for the price it did. Great example is that PTS Orange one on BaT. Buyers could use that data point to say that the market is crashing, but we all know that it was terribly represented. There are many of these hidden stories with cars at the big name auctions as well, and those stories don't get discussed on a public forum, the cars just sell for low dollars or don't sell at all.
Last edited by Mr. Adair; 09-12-2019 at 01:00 PM.
09-12-2019, 01:14 PM
#2951
Rennlist Member
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...360-modena-13/
I was a pretty painless process as compared with personally selling on; special interest sites, Autotrader, Cars.com, etc.
I thought answering peoples questions would be a PITA, but I did a thorough job of representing the car in advance and only got 3 - 4 legitimate questions throughout the process.
Since the car was a high-miler, I doubt I could have done much better $$$ on another site.
Cheers
Craig
Last edited by cgfen; 09-12-2019 at 07:08 PM. Reason: removed 6 GT3 comment
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09-12-2019, 05:42 PM
#2952
Rennlist Member
09-12-2019, 07:01 PM
#2953
In regard to BAT, my feeling is buyers think it’s like a street price and the most accurate way to asses a cars REAL value because their buyers. Sellers don’t agree and say great/clean examples from private parties and collections are better cars and worth more. The best cars certainly don’t end up on BAT? Any thoughts Doug?
09-12-2019, 07:07 PM
#2954
Rennlist Member
09-12-2019, 07:22 PM
#2955
Drifting
Unless the car and or broker/seller is known to you BAT is as good or maybe better than anything else. I don't trust the auction houses. And I think people are sick of them inflating prices and controlling the market. Social media and communications has made it easy for the big collectors to know who has what and contact them either through the high end brokers or directly. In addition, the web based world moves faster than planned auctions for some future date. BAT is a good barometer of the current market.