jenk12m

Lol

forhamilton

Wow

dcrooke

P.S. just to prove that I know I'm not related to Franchitti and di Resta .... this mediocre effort was my BEST lap .....

[url]www.youtube.com/watch?v=igAzqi2KtkU&t=7m40s[url]

dcrooke

I know, I know, teenager going for a Sunday drive I find it hard to focus on the track at 0/10ths and tend to drop back to street driving habits when in really slow traffic. It's a habit I will need to break for check rides.

With the guy in the Wolf, I just dumped the trans in automatic and pretended the Salt Lick was at the far end of the track At least he helped conserve my fuel, I was getting nearly 8 mpg behind him vs. 4.3 mpg on the open track. I also left the car in 5th for an entire lap (those of you old enough that follow F1 should get the reference to a certain ex-Benetton driver) and while it was an interesting experiment in driving smoothly and using less power, again not what I went to CotA to do.

This is part of the reason I am stepping down to a much slower and less valuable car until I can get with a group of folks who know what they are doing and who are safe to track with and won't hold you back.

I realise I have to earn Advanced like (most) everyone else did. If that means doing a textbook example of miming track driving at funeral procession pace for half of the next 3-4 HPDEs, well, I have the patience do so, a slow car will make it less painful, and it's totally worth it to me to earn Advanced with The Driver's Edge so I can finally get into a decent run group I passed both my driving tests (a real one an a Texas one) first time with near perfect scores, and without speeding once. I can try not to trail brake or do other things considered inappropriate for my lack of HPDE experience - the last "instructor" I had at a Texas DE called me out on it, but it's a hard habit to quit, etc., etc.

I know the problem is mostly the car is too quick, but it's simply not fun to go that slow, and I get easily frustrated with people who simply aren't making an effort to either drive their cars or to check mirrors and give point-bys.

I have come to expect muppetry, chaos, incompetence, inadequate instructors, etc. in the Novice / Low Intermediate groups at Texas DE's and I had resolved not to take a quick car to them again, and I won't .... I had thought CotA would be special and immune to this issue, but I was misled by the TDE event, which went like clockwork, and I truly wasn't expecting that kind of newbie cluster f**k at CotA, and it was happening in "Advanced" too, don't forget.

The GTR will be staying away from DEs for now.

Rene

Wow i must have missed that part of class on the underhanded 9 on 9 steering techniques @ Skip Barber!

dcrooke

I admit my own mistakes ....

1. I was very prepared to be running with slightly more experienced people at CotA. I memorized the track on F1 2012. I did the first session on street tires at 3/10ths. I kept it in automatic so I could focus on the lines and not worry about gear changes. I intentionally did not mount the GoPro or any other gadgets that would distract my focus on grid.

I was totally unprepared for the ludicrous traffic and of being one of the MORE experienced people in my group, and I was totally wrong footed by people not checking mirrors in the first 2-3 sessions, and started getting ever more zany behind them in an effort to be seen. Well, that's clearly unhelpful, all I did was add to Mark's concerns (no doubt amplified by you, thanks and he already had enough idiots to deal with.

What I should have done was run the pit lane more, and talk to Mark at lunchtime about having the come to Jesus with the red group sooner. The calmer option is ALWAYS the better option.



Your memory of the H2R incident isn't quite right; sorry for airing the laundry here, but I feel I must correct your misstatements.

I pushed the Audi a wee bit too hard into 7 at your H2R event, and got it sideways, ran out of room / talent to catch it, and decided to go off forwards in and orderly fashion rather than spinning the car on the course. I did my best within the limits of my driving ability.

You got angry with me for two reasons:

a. You thought I was trying to take advantage of a gap in your rules, that said that anyone going 4 off would be parked for the rest of the heat; well, it was the 3rd run, so this rule had no effect, but I wasn't trying to exploit it, I was just trying to be a little quicker and made a judgement error. I am new to both autox and track.

b. I was the second last car of the entire heat, followed by Stef (red Mitsubishi Lancer, THS 13) and so I waited for her to go by, then asked the corner worker what to do .... you had instructed us to stay "off the racing line" but it was impossible not to cross the racing line from where I was, unless I drove all the way round the outfield on the grass. The corner worker told me to just clean my tires by driving a bit on the kerbing and then drive back on and up to the paddock, and indeed no dirt was spread on the track, I stopped to check.

As I drove into the paddock, you came over to my car window and said "you're done for the day" in an angry tone and stomped off before I could explain any of this. I went to talk to Jerry Centanni, and asked him what was up, and he said that you were under a lot of pressure as it was the first event at H2R, and that since it was not a Spokes event he was not getting involved. I consulted Bo, and he told me to wait a bit and then talk to you over lunch.

We sat on the paddock wall for a few minutes in the lunch break and conversed, and after I explained both the things, you asked me if I wanted to run the afternoon session and I said that yes, I would, and that I would be more circumspect in the open corners. So you didn't actually park me at all.

If you wonder why my memory of this is so detailed, it's because I respect you highly, and because it bother me that you have a bad impression of me. I realise this will take time to overcome, but it is what it is.

The fact that you remember it as you did is because the most vivid memory for you was the moment of anger when you thought I was intentionally being a jackass. This is a normal human memory process, and part of why eyewitnesses give such poor testimony, and I don't blame you for it, nor does it undermine my respect. Everyone loses it from time to time based on miscommunications.

I can promise you that no-one who knows how to use a mirror will ever have any cause to bitch about my driving at a DE.

FWIW, at least the event at CotA was not unsafe, at least not in my run group. No-one did crazy spins, no-one locked up behind me, etc. and the Viper had his crash alone.

I had the ever living **** scared out of me at not one but two of Sondra's VA DEs at H2R, which is what got me thinking about the Audi. It's cheap, and also a better car to learn on.

I really don't think it's unreasonable at a DE that cost me nearly $2k to attend for me to expect someone in a single seater that should be taking nearly 30 sec a lap out of me to either (a) drive with some enthusiasm, or (b) give me a point by. I truly don't mind which.

It seems as though you feel my expectation of at least a moderate level of competence from people I share the track with is unreasonable. I agree my initial response on Friday was not at all appropriate, as I said I admit my mistakes.

After the Sat morning chewing out of the red group, John Munsey and I got together to agree this plan to live without any point-bys, other than from each other:
- grid 15 minutes early
- do 3 laps, pit, get 3 more clear-ish laps and then live with it or come in early

As it transpired, the traffic improved enough to where it wasn't so bad and we just lived with it for the rest of the weekend.

For now, I am going to run only with Driver's Edge, and earn my way up the ranks. I sent Rick an email asking if it was OK to bring the A6, since he requires blue and street tires for all new folks, and explaining why I won't run the GT-R in blue any more. Unless of course you choose to black ball me there

dcrooke

I had VDC off for a few laps actually It's the same generic software that comes with a Maxima, and in its world, full throttle down a slope (exiting T1, T11 at CotA) is a bad idea and it was cutting power almost totally. However, I was making so many mistakes elsewhere that turning it off had no effect, and yes I was probably extra mindful of the fact that VDC also contains the "*** catcher" (ESP? It corrects sideways if you don't

I see no shame in running with VDC on at a track day, I'm there to learn and play, not total the car. Learning to be confident without it will be a slow process for me, I don't have P-car money and I can't afford to stuff the Nissan.

Yes, power will hide some mistakes, but at the end of the day to go really quickly you have to get it right in any car. The GT2 also has (somewhat) active 4wd, so it's a like for like comparison.

There are two key differences:

- the engine is in the front, so there is a much higher polar moment of inertia about the vertical axis, making the car more stable, and a super long wheelbase to compensate for the turn-in issues this creates.

- the Nissan ATTESA software, which is the magic that makes a GT-R a GT-R, and they've been working on since the 80's, and the sensors, trick rear diff and suspension for it to operate.

I'd imagine on a course composed entirely of 2nd gear 90s and short straights, like an airfield single venue stage rally in the UK, I suspect nearly any well driven 911 would have my lunch as they are so agile, and have such excellent rear grip under hard acceleration and straight line speed. But I'm not Jimmy Macrae, and I know I could never drive a 911 in a confined space as god[1] intended I have a friend who has a GT-R who has mused about buying an old RWD 911 turbo as a 2nd track car just for the driving challenge, but he can afford to get it wrong in one

The Cayman is a much better chassis, but Porsche won't put a decent engine in one for fear of cannibalizing the 911 market, which I totally grok. They're maximising revenue and trading on 50 years of well deserved nostalgia. Also, don't forget that the richest car market in the world is full of people obsessed with 0-60 times, an area where a rear engined layout is always going to shine.

However, at risk of getting into a car advocacy war, I will posit that the GT-R is also the quicker of the two cars in the hands of the pros: a quick trailer from a (sorry) Clarkson video ... I hope this doesn't result in a ban from Rennlist, I didn't sign up to troll P-car owners, many of whom are my friends, I just wanted to know about DE info and I heard this is the best place.

http://bcove.me/y1x0zvmd

[1] well, Ferdinand Porsche really, but close enough for this forum Actually, I respect him hugely, the Beetle was a damn clever piece of packaging, and he invented stuff we still use today like cone synchromesh

russo

For a newbie with issues at other tracks you sure talk a big game. Criticizing anybody and everyone sure must make you feel good. Your comment about real car nerds that prefer GT-Rs? You must be definitely referring to those same nerds that spend a great deal of time playing those racing videos.

dcrooke

First of all, you're a far better driver than me The line through 13-15 is excellent. I tried all kinds of strange things on Fri before giving up and asking someone better than me who had run the track before, and even then I didn't get it down.

Of course, this stuff is easy to armchair quatrerback, and I am cheating because (a) I got a coaching session from a friend who is an instructor, and (b) I got a loan of an Aim Solo for a couple of sessions.

Here are the very few nits I was able to pick:

- there is no benefit in running wide through 6, it's a circular corner, stay tighter and a little slower, lift for the late apex to tuck in track right and get a nice line into 7. This I figured out myself.

- apex 8 later so you can straighten out 9 and get the power on earlier (Nugget) ... orange kerb is a decoy

- a little quicker into 12, you had a lot of spare asphalt (Roger called me on this)

- can't speak to 13; in the Nissan I was crossing the full width of the track under hard acceleration, then doing a late entry to 13 and getting on the power pre-apex, straight line the chicane and follow the line you did with trail braking into 15. I never got it right though

- get on power eaerlier / more and be a little bolder round 16-18 ... you're hitting the 2nd apex well but not tracking out enough -> could use more speed. I found if I got it almost right I could be on 3/4 throttle from 16-17 and flat out everywhere else, on Pirelli hard slicks, and get to ~115mph before braking for 19. But then again, I also did this

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mglJu81tHIE&t=2m

dcrooke

I'll bite.

Yes I'm a newbie, and I make mistakes, but not dangerous ones (at least, not to anyone not in the car). I have pretty good situational awareness on a track, though I had trouble seeing flags at CotA. Try out the split-merge at a multi-lap single venue rally stage with 30 second start intervals; up to 5-6 cars trying to play Changing Lanes [2] at very different full competition paces (it's on a straight, and you're running with cars either 10-15 above or 10-15 below you on the seeding order, on the two respective laps) and everyone trying not to lift; it makes a point-by seem trivially simple to get right, but I don't recall ever seeing a collision at one.

I don't have any issues at any tracks. See my reply to Andy where I explained how he misremembered the context of my off at his "Outlaw" autox and the resolution we came to afterward. I got off on the wrong foot with Andy the very first time I met him in 2001 when I climbed into the shotgun seat of his SUV by mistake, and he's always assumed since that I am a complete dumbass - I meet him about once every 2 years and always manage to do something stupid when he's around, so I can't say I blame him. But it's not a daily habit or anything, just a coincidence of 4 events, 3 of which you now know all about. The fourth was venting about politics in a car club email list, and his private coaching email back to me was totally spot on. I suspect he's a good manager if he still has a day job, but I get the impression he does all motor sport stuff now.

My issue with the lower run groups at DE's is purely fear for my car's considerable amounts of expensive bodywork, and frustration at getting so few laps in at any kind of pace. My friend Sondra was[1] a very thorough organizer, and even she was unable to keep the danger in those run groups down to my comfort level for running the Nissan. She also ran the one DE I took the A6 to, also at H2R, and was very forgiving when I attacked the track like a tarmac rally stage and of course stuck it off after about 10 laps. She just said to me "well, everyone does it once (going off in the first session in a car they've never tracked). Bring the Nissan again next time, you have more respect for it"

It was a pretty stupid thing to do, but at least I went far enough off that they didn't need to recover the car until lunchtime $700 lesson (CV joint + 2 tyres).

I don't understand y'all's need to rationalize away the GT-R's capability - a GT-R is half the cost of a 911 GT2, an Ariel Atom is half the cost of a GT-R, and the latter is quicker still. Not my cup of tea though. The GT-R is mostly off the shelf European parts, and Nissan did nothing that Porsche could not have; after all, they made the Cayman, 928, and 911 GT1. Porsche chose not to, for very smart reasons IMHO - the 911 is the best brand in the entire car industry.

I have a friend back home who is a really talented driver, at TrackToyz kind of level, but into rallying, and as a rally guy he used to own the GT-R's baby brother (Sunny GTiR) as a daily driver, and is planning to pick a GT-R up when they drop a bit more in price in the UK. It's not a track nerd car, it's a rally nerd car. Boy racers love them, but it's definitely a car nerd car too

I am as passionate about my ugly Japanese car as you are about your pretty German one, and we should celebrate the many things we agree upon. Going round corners fast is fun.

If you're in Texas, you may see me at the track, but apart from the TX2K13 [3] track day at TWS in March, I will be at the back of the pack in my scruffy German landkraftwagen. No active diffs, no traction control, no ESP, just a well balanced, slow 4wd car to practice on. I promise a swift point by and a smile.



[1] she didn't pass away, but she did quit running DE's as there wasn't enough profit to cover the many hours of effort to put one on. As someone who used to put on events of a similar complexity back home, I totally empathise, and for road rallies organizers are purely volunteers
[2] it's a movie not a video game
[3] if you think I'm a boy racer, you should see what they get up to Fri-Sun. The track day is however entirely civilized, so if you are aching for TWS come play. SW is the only person bringing a 911, but all are welcome. Also, there will be a Camaro race car lapping GT-Rs, he comes every year; it's wickedly fast. The only factory parts are the taillights. Quite literally awesome, or at least I'm in awe

dcrooke

In all seriousness, I've done more than enough bitching; we all had fun, and no-one got injured, and the vast majority of people on the track were paying attention and being courteous, regardless of their chosen speed or vehicle; let's focus on the positives, we got to play with our fast toys at one of the best tracks in the world. That's a bucket list item for me.

Something I find I have to check myself with frequently - I'm probably the least wealthy person on this forum, and yet I'm incredibly privileged even by G7 standards. There are still over a billion people on the planet who don't always know where their next meal is coming from. They've never seen a paved road, and I'm bitching about traffic at a beautiful $400m F1 track in my home town which we all got to drive on for nearly 100 laps. Shame on me.

Perspective helps.

dcrooke

Bragging on @TrackToyz some more, he was turning 2:33's in a Honda CRX. That's GT3 territory for the amateurs. And it was his #2 engine. Yes, he is that good.

wanna911

Your video is a prime example of whats deplorable about the GTR. Your steering mechanics are horrible and if you get into a situation where even the GTR needs some help to escape you have no chance. Your entry to the turns is bad, line looks bad yet here you are talking about lap times instead of learning the most basic of track driving fundamentals like not driving like you are pulling into your garage every turn. And on slicks at that! Id much prefer slower people on track in the advanced/intermediate group that at least know the basics.

Unfortunately this is the type of driver we see in GTRs over and over again. People who want to go fast without learning how to do it properly from a drivers perspective.

TRAKCAR

Well said Dez, the fundamentals of driving apply to a GTR, but even when you can't execute the fundamentals, or even don't know what they are the GTR still allows you to go around the track fast. To get the most out of a GTR, you still need to a good driver that can drive any car fast. If you are fast in a GTR you might kill yourself in a BRZ.

The excitement of driving is to feel it in your hands, feel it in you butt, balance the car just so to maximize minimum speed and exit speed for a well executed corner, it is like playing an instrument. Flappy gear boxes are faster, but take some of that feel away too.

The GTR is so difficult to learn to drive in because it offers no feel, except for G Forces.
And a lot of wallow and speed without any finesse. The only thing lacking on a Playstation are the G forces and even those can be mimicked on a good simulator. So as a driving simulator the GTR is expensive.

I figure today the BRZ'S are the perfect beginner track cars, but I have not driven one.
The novel above I have yet to read but The BRZ or Scion would be a great car for dcrooke. Cheaper still, much more fun and he'll have to learn to drive.

Vonschmidt

I think we have all seen the results of people wanting to go fast with computers rather than skills earned. I watched a AMG literally blow up his braking system with pieces flying out in a turn since he was simply planting his right foot and turning the wheel with all the finesse of a bulldog. Relying on computers reminds me of the saying live by the sword die by the sword.

I trully hope this thread can return to the positive with track videos and educational input there is so much to be gained, and I had fun at COTA not as much as I could have but alas shutting down due to motor issues will dampen the fun anywhere.

I enjoyed meeting some great drivers who also turned out to be great guys. Thanks for letting me put faces to names and I hope to see many of you again this summer on our travels.