Centerlocks - A Cautionary Tale
04-21-2011, 09:27 PM
#61
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It would appear Marketing is now really > engineering. I file CLs into the same category as the 2011 GT3 RS's side stripe/graphics (sorry, just my own opinion) and the new Speedster, under "Things that may cause Porsche to lose its cool."
By PAG's own measurements, CL-equipped Turbos are slightly heavier than 5L cars, as I learned while talking with a Weissach engineer. It's due not to the wheels but to the large centerlock socket in the front trunk. Factor in all the headaches and special (!) procedures, and I don't get it.
pete
By PAG's own measurements, CL-equipped Turbos are slightly heavier than 5L cars, as I learned while talking with a Weissach engineer. It's due not to the wheels but to the large centerlock socket in the front trunk. Factor in all the headaches and special (!) procedures, and I don't get it.
pete
Do you know how many people have asked to convert their CL to 5? I don't know but it's been a lot....
I'm going to polish Dan's Rusty&Trusty 912 wheel nuts....
04-21-2011, 09:31 PM
#62
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iPASM, iPSM, iTC, iChrono et al could all be controlled with one joy stick in place of a 6speed. Perfect!
04-22-2011, 02:43 AM
#65
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Lee, they are a pain in the *** but DEFINITELY NOT a deal breaker... You can safeguard yourself against most situations you've posted. I carry a Porsche collapsable breaker bar in the car. Most tyre/repair shops may not have required tools but using the b-bar you can loosen the wheel for them to repair/replace your tyre. There is an emergency procedure for tightening the wheels with just that b-bar to 100Nm until you get home and torque them properly. The b-bar costs about $300 and will sort you out anywhere as long as you can get to any tyre/repair shop that can do a basic puncture repair or tyre change.
As for tyre changes, i have the required tools at home and remove them, get them re-shot with rubber and put them on myself at home as i don't trust tyre shops to get it right...
As for tyre changes, i have the required tools at home and remove them, get them re-shot with rubber and put them on myself at home as i don't trust tyre shops to get it right...
04-22-2011, 04:30 AM
#66
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Appreciate your thoughts on this but why are we even talking about pain in the *** and a Porsche in the same sentence? One of the marque's appeals has been reliability and supercar performance. I don't think a highway or track user should sacrifice the reliability (and safety) side to get the performance side. Personally I don't plan on having a home tire repair shop to go with the 100K Pcar (but not arguing with your choice). At least with my old SC I had a donut spare, a can of goop and a wrench. Even though the Pcar is still very reliable, you can't take road hazards out of the equation and hope for a flatbed when you want to take it out on some backroads to truly enjoy the experience. I want a car I can take out on some real roads, not just the freeway, checking the nav frequently to keep tabs on the nearest dealership. Thanks for the input, but still seems like we shouldn't even be dealing with the CL issue. Poor decision to introduce these for a road car on Porsche's part, it seems.
Please understand that there are no reliability or safety issues with them on the street and a $300 tool puts you in the same boat as any 997 driver! That is, with a flat tyre and no spare to use, whats the difference? If you had a 5 lug car you'd still be on a flatbed truck- thats the Porsche experience as i understand it...For that matter, i doubt most other big dollar sports cars have spare tyres, lambos? ferraris? doubt it and they'll set you back $200k
The OPs situation was with aftermarket wheels and track loads. It can't exactly be concluded that CLs failed, maybe they weren't done up to correct spec, maybe the tool used is faulty and didn't give a true 600nm of torque. Nobody knows the true reason for the near incident.
Ultimately, the level of inconvenience one is willing to endure depends on the individual. Just want you to understand that you won't be much worse off so don't make it the reason for taking or passing up on a car. Best of luck with your car shopping...
04-22-2011, 10:41 AM
#67
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With almost all new luxury/sports cars you are screwed it you have total tire failure in the middle of nowhere. Run-flat tires help a little but if you shred your tire you are done.
With a 5-lug system all you get is the ability for anyone to take off the wheel. That's not much use in the boonies. How many tire shops carry tires that fit? You'll have to ship one to where you are or flatbed the car to a place that has one.
Any decent mechanic will have a breaker bar to attach to the socket and can remove the wheel. Attaching the wheel perfectly is more difficult but in a pinch you can use a regular torque wrench and a breaker bar. It will get you home.
With a 5-lug system all you get is the ability for anyone to take off the wheel. That's not much use in the boonies. How many tire shops carry tires that fit? You'll have to ship one to where you are or flatbed the car to a place that has one.
Any decent mechanic will have a breaker bar to attach to the socket and can remove the wheel. Attaching the wheel perfectly is more difficult but in a pinch you can use a regular torque wrench and a breaker bar. It will get you home.
04-22-2011, 10:47 AM
#68
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Don't disagree with you about Porsche's decision to introduce CLs on their high performance cars nor am I making excuses for them. Were I given a choice I wouldn't take them, full stop. My point is simple, the CLs aren't a big enough reason to pass up the GT experience IMO...
Please understand that there are no reliability or safety issues with them on the street and a $300 tool puts you in the same boat as any 997 driver! That is, with a flat tyre and no spare to use, whats the difference? If you had a 5 lug car you'd still be on a flatbed truck- thats the Porsche experience as i understand it...For that matter, i doubt most other big dollar sports cars have spare tyres, lambos? ferraris? doubt it and they'll set you back $200k
The OPs situation was with aftermarket wheels and track loads. It can't exactly be concluded that CLs failed, maybe they weren't done up to correct spec, maybe the tool used is faulty and didn't give a true 600nm of torque. Nobody knows the true reason for the near incident.
Ultimately, the level of inconvenience one is willing to endure depends on the individual. Just want you to understand that you won't be much worse off so don't make it the reason for taking or passing up on a car. Best of luck with your car shopping...
Please understand that there are no reliability or safety issues with them on the street and a $300 tool puts you in the same boat as any 997 driver! That is, with a flat tyre and no spare to use, whats the difference? If you had a 5 lug car you'd still be on a flatbed truck- thats the Porsche experience as i understand it...For that matter, i doubt most other big dollar sports cars have spare tyres, lambos? ferraris? doubt it and they'll set you back $200k
The OPs situation was with aftermarket wheels and track loads. It can't exactly be concluded that CLs failed, maybe they weren't done up to correct spec, maybe the tool used is faulty and didn't give a true 600nm of torque. Nobody knows the true reason for the near incident.
Ultimately, the level of inconvenience one is willing to endure depends on the individual. Just want you to understand that you won't be much worse off so don't make it the reason for taking or passing up on a car. Best of luck with your car shopping...
I couldn't agree with 911rox more. I carry the Porsche collapsible breaker bar in a Case Logic tripod bag in the front trunk. As many have said you need to make sure those spring-loaded splines are fully out/engaged. I've had a dealer tech inspection completed prior to an event, and when I went home to check, ALL were not fully extended. Just jiggle with a 1/2" square drive male adapter and they all come out easily.
04-22-2011, 01:54 PM
#69
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911 rox and Andrei,
Yup, I know the total shredding of a tire or other breakdown still means a flatbed tow no matter where you are and thanks for reminding me of what I already know (just plain annoyed about it I guess). It still seems dopey on Porsche's part to add another issue to possibly deal with when you are outside of major cities and have CL's (when the advantages of them for a street car aren't that great). I've got time to stew on the matter anyways before I am ready for a purchase.
Thanks very much for the insights guys!
Yup, I know the total shredding of a tire or other breakdown still means a flatbed tow no matter where you are and thanks for reminding me of what I already know (just plain annoyed about it I guess). It still seems dopey on Porsche's part to add another issue to possibly deal with when you are outside of major cities and have CL's (when the advantages of them for a street car aren't that great). I've got time to stew on the matter anyways before I am ready for a purchase.
Thanks very much for the insights guys!
04-23-2011, 02:41 PM
#70
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With almost all new luxury/sports cars you are screwed it you have total tire failure in the middle of nowhere. Run-flat tires help a little but if you shred your tire you are done.
With a 5-lug system all you get is the ability for anyone to take off the wheel. That's not much use in the boonies. How many tire shops carry tires that fit? You'll have to ship one to where you are or flatbed the car to a place that has one.
Any decent mechanic will have a breaker bar to attach to the socket and can remove the wheel. Attaching the wheel perfectly is more difficult but in a pinch you can use a regular torque wrench and a breaker bar. It will get you home.
With a 5-lug system all you get is the ability for anyone to take off the wheel. That's not much use in the boonies. How many tire shops carry tires that fit? You'll have to ship one to where you are or flatbed the car to a place that has one.
Any decent mechanic will have a breaker bar to attach to the socket and can remove the wheel. Attaching the wheel perfectly is more difficult but in a pinch you can use a regular torque wrench and a breaker bar. It will get you home.
One , you keep tyres in stock or Two, just overnight them in from tyrerack. As long as I carry the breaker bar and a jack I can take the wheel in to big boy tyre and have them throw it on. Yes, another car is handy.
And worst case, Porsche is good for flatbedding you to the dealer,even 350 miles away.
So its no worse than any other luxury car or SUV w no full size spare as said above.
HOWEVER Porsche should supply the breaker bar and jack with the car,it's unacceptable that they do not.
04-24-2011, 11:00 AM
#71
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Posted by Chromium24
What washer was missing? Do you have a picture?
10K miles and 30 track days now on mine. I change the CL's as quick or quicker then 5 lug, no problem.
Just more tools to buy and another routine.
I use the torque wrench both ways as a breaker bar. Probably a little less accurate. One day I will test torque settings with another gentler used wrench, since I also waaaay over tightened the bolts by accident, bending the crap out of torque wrench (Broke Porsche sprocket, beer involved), backed them off, retorqued to 600nm, etc and all seems fine.
Never had grease solidify, even when the wheels are super hot and bleed some (bearing?) oil, but never seen anything bad with the Castrol grease.
I don't re-torque and the were always tight coming off the track. I typically switch wheels or at least flip wheels at least once a weekend, so my wheels have come off and on plenty of times. I have my bolts serviced about every 4-6 track days though. I use original nubbies, but only replaced rotors once so far.
I pried the cone out and found that there was a very thick build-up of the Castrol grease. The grease had solidified like stone. It took some solvent and a lot of elbow grease to clean it off. The wheel side was even worse. As I went to put it all back together and re-grease, I discovered that the washer between the nut and cone was missing. I'm guessing that had something to do with the nut coming loose.
10K miles and 30 track days now on mine. I change the CL's as quick or quicker then 5 lug, no problem.
Just more tools to buy and another routine.
I use the torque wrench both ways as a breaker bar. Probably a little less accurate. One day I will test torque settings with another gentler used wrench, since I also waaaay over tightened the bolts by accident, bending the crap out of torque wrench (Broke Porsche sprocket, beer involved), backed them off, retorqued to 600nm, etc and all seems fine.
Never had grease solidify, even when the wheels are super hot and bleed some (bearing?) oil, but never seen anything bad with the Castrol grease.
I don't re-torque and the were always tight coming off the track. I typically switch wheels or at least flip wheels at least once a weekend, so my wheels have come off and on plenty of times. I have my bolts serviced about every 4-6 track days though. I use original nubbies, but only replaced rotors once so far.
04-24-2011, 11:40 AM
#72
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Which breaker bar did u get? Any differences among them? I am going to order tooltopia torque wrench, they have a 40" breaker.
04-24-2011, 05:41 PM
#73
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I bought the breaker bar from 3R Automotive. It's a 3-piece design and comes in a nice faux-leather bag with sleeves for each section so they don't rattle. It's more spendy, but very well engineered and made. Good stuff! 
Like I said earlier in this post, always be sure to flip your mirrors inwards when you use this tool on your front wheels!
http://www.3rauto.com/_im149zx/show....r¤tPic=5
Like I said earlier in this post, always be sure to flip your mirrors inwards when you use this tool on your front wheels!
http://www.3rauto.com/_im149zx/show....r¤tPic=5
