Übër Interesting

 

For whatever its worth...



Recovery times went to the .2s. You can even see it during the shifts.

Though it is nice to be rid of the factory hoses.

 

I'm not sure if I'm reading it right, but it doesn't seem to be the win I thought it would be.

Can you share more info?

 

Temperature over time elapse.

Basically. After 10 Secs of WOT.

On .2 inter-coolers temperatures raised from 38 C to 50C. Net of 12C
On Champion inter-coolers temperatures raised from 37C to 54C. Net of 17C change.

The more change = worse flow / cooling capacity.
In other words, you are paying more for less.

As for for why .2 start at 38 vs. 37 like CM. Variable or perhaps CM cool down better off WOT ? I don't have the logs so i can't make conclusion. That said, based on off throttle on 7.3 to 8.4 sec mark and again repeat at 14.1 to 15.1 mark compare to off throttle of CM, i would say the .2 cool down much faster off throttle.

 

I've got an in depth write-up in the works. Want to collect a little more data. In terms of IAT, they're pretty much neck and neck so far. Mind you this is at 1.3-1.4 bar on a 996TT. Guys running 1.55 bar on 997s and pushing the stock turbos may see different results and buy more turbo headroom with the CMS option as has been seen on several 997.2 PDK cars.

 

That's what I read too. I believe Earl is not running VTG turbos based on his previous tests.

Really looking forward to your write up. Your last sentence echos what GIAC said about their 9 second tune and why they will not sell it anyone without the CMS intercoolers.

With the stock .2 intercoolers they have to really crank up the frequency of the stock VTG turbos to hit the boost pressures they are commanding.

This would create more stress on the turbos and of course heat. This would not only miss the performance target of the 9 second tune but could make the car not run right at all.

It may even deliver much worse performance compared to a milder tune baseline if you ran the 9 second tune w/out their required hard parts including the CMS intercoolers.

Appreciate all of the effort you put into the IC tests you do earl3.

 

Earl-

Any update on the CMS IC test?

 

Updates?

 

Sorry, in the middle of a move and the formal write-up is far away from me, but i can summarize:

They are very well constructed with significant attention to detail throughout the kit. The cnc outlet tank should be patented, its perfect.

On my 996tt with k16/2280 hybrids at 1.4 bar and 32c ambient temps (same compressor wheel on the 997 gt2 and 997.2):

IATs were essentially the same running 50-170 mph, both finishing around 60c (around 30c over ambient on a very hot day) Neither budged much doing 60-130s (a worthless intercooler metric IMHO, just like a basic chassis dyno)

997.2s recovered more quickly but it was pretty close.

I'm sure there is less pressure drop through the Champion coolers which gets you a little more headroom if you're maxing your stock turbos and want to push them a little further (talk to GIAC and the 997.2 race gas flash on this one)

I cant speak to value since everyone's budget will be different but 997.2 guys can reasonably expect 1k usd for their stock coolers which puts the Champion coolers under 3k usd and gives you all the headroom you'll ever need on a stock 997.2 short block.

In the theme of this thread, i don't think either of these coolers is the best for the platform. Data dictates that crown belongs to the CTR assembled, Marston cored coolers Toby is running. They will cost you though!

 

Interesting info Earl, thanks for posting, seems you are the guru on this subject - well done for sticking at it, I'm sure your reports are a big benefit for us punters.

I thought I would share some intercooler related snippets on here. I remember a few years back Manthey were saying they were developing different intercooler air intake pods to increase efficiency but they ended up not bringing them to market as their data did not show worthwhile improvements.

One of RS Tuning's customers is a keen club racer and he raced his 996GT2 for years it ended up with a 3.9 K24 engine running around 800PS - they had some special pods made (see pic below) and whilst they didn't rave about their effectiveness they stayed on the car.



The customer referred to above has since moved on from his 996GT2 and has had a very elaborate bespoke 997 based turbo race car built still using his 3.9 K24 engine on Bosch Motorsport electronics. They realised that for most tracks the air flow (through the Secan cores) at the racing speeds which were usually sub 120mph was not sufficient to keep IATs in the green zone particularly in the summer 30+C heat.

As they had done on previous race cars they fabricated the intercooler air intakes to be above the wheel arch (utilising the standard air intakes for air filter air). The pic below is the most aggressive of three pods which can fit depending on conditions and circuit.



They were particularly interested in testing my car since it had similar intercoolers and similar engine specification (boost pressure etc) and they found that in 30C heat in 4th gear airflow (ie sub 130mph) my IATs were getting up to 60C whereas the race car in same sort of conditions with its big pods was getting no higher than 40C.

They were obviously pleased with the proof of efficiency of the race car set up but concerned about my IATs. They modified the outlets of my intercooler ducting, cutting some of the rear PU and bottom vents to create more suction but said ideally some better pods were needed similar to the 996GT2 ones above.

This little story is interesting and taken as it is it sounds like my car NEEDS some help with the intercooling but like all things it is about what one is actually using the car for !
I do not race on tracks where the airflow stays below 4th gear, in fact I don't race at all

I have avidly watched the IAT during many miles since the RST testing in ambients at 30+C it never got over 45C, in fact (and this is obvious but worth saying) over 130mph the IAT stays resolutely below 50C, only when hitting the big numbers does it hover above 50C but the airflow over the cores is sufficient to keep it there.

So no massive bespoke intake pods for me however I would probably try some fancy ones in the stock position if anyone cared to fab some up ?

 

This was an interseting read. Past July was very hot over here, and for the first time I run the local track at +30C OAT. 3 km and twisty, so mostly 3rd gear, one uphill with 2nd and one straight with 4th. While I have not had any problems previously with twentysomething OATs, now IAT went up to 60C. I had to run 1.0 bar boost instead of 1.3 bar to keep IAT below 50C. At Nordschleife or Autobahns at OAT 20C the IAT is 40C or less. Approx numbers here, I do not have datalogs present.
That scoop in the pic is even fuglier than mine, which I was going to resculpture next winter. Now I have to think about the form again...

PS. I'm very interested in knowing more about that car's exhaust/silencer.

 

Thanks Earl. My CMS intercoolers are going in this weekend. I was looking at the AMS ones, but ultimately decided on the CMS ics. It doesn't look like much out there cools better than the stock 997.2 ics but with the increased flow and proven track record of the Champion cars, I felt good about the choice.

To be clear. I didn't order the CMS intercoolers until yesterday after your report. It was between the AMS, CMS, ETS, and AWE for me. I priced out the Marston cores but couldn't justify the price difference for my street pleasure car.

There may be better offerings out there but none have proven it in real world performance package yet like Champion has. Has to account for something.

 

I didn't know about "the proven track record of the Champion cars" in relation to 996/997 turbo intercooling - can you elaborate ?

 

My statement was referencing a total package that relates to my intended use: street driven 99% of the time, 1% acceleration type track events. For my use

Champion is the only company that has produced a package with proven performance results for my intended use. Not only from their own car but from customers cars across the country as well. This package includes their intercoolers, and in fact for GIAC to sell you the specific "9 second tune", the CMS intercoolers are required. Hence my statement.

With AMS, and Cobb on the scene, will these guys surpass this and prove their package and intercoolers are superior in time? I wouldn't be surprised based on their track record in the GTR world, and quite frankly, I hope they do. Competition benefits the enthusiast consumer and will drive Champion and other tuners to up their game.

 

Thanks Toby for reminding about this part. I am almost shocked that no one EVER uses these on 6BLING as people pour so much $$$ to these cars to be bit quicker than someone else

For 996, Manthey still has this part on their web site, and for the 996 they say 5-10 celsius degrees lower IATs. Is that benefit something I should do to my trusty old 600hp 996TT RWD track car with 997.2 coolers!? I have just slapped on the 997.2 coolers and haven't really thought how much difference would that 5-10c be. They make them in CF and cost is 900EUR+VAT.

Some more pics, sorry if off-topic,





Thanks if comments!