Best 997GT2 intercooler
03-13-2012, 07:40 AM
#361
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Hi TTurbine,
the tests were done with 100 octane greek fuel (anyone's guess what that really is these days but I can tell you that the car runs significantly better with 98 france/swiss/ italian etc fuel as nowadays quality is horrendous over there) + torco. My guess is that this brings it to equivalent of 100-102 octane pump fuel.
The spray system was used in both runs with water in ambient temp. (i.e. no ice etc). I have not been able to measure the effect as I don't think that spray significantly reduces iats on the run (maybe max 3-5 degrees?). I believe it mainly helps with heat soak, i.e. recovery between runs. Also I am using a smaller pump for weight reasons and thus spraying mist at a lot lower density than other systems. (wiper bottle lasts decent amount of time!)
The issue comparing ICs with different setups is that tuning strategy changes everything. Thats why i tried 2 coolers (stock .1 was a waste of time as it never worked anyway for this power) on same car almost back to back.
Now looking at your data I think it will be very difficult to control IATs with any IC (that I know of) while running 1.55 boost constantly. I am not sure what turbos you have etc but its anyones guess what kind of back pressure is built in the system with such boost and everything else stock. This is where heat comes from and beyond a certain point there is no return..
In my car we are using a GT2 intake, running very lean, and with very high ignition timing. Also i have GT2 titanium exhaust with 100 cells and flaps which means that at WOT there is literally almost 0 backpressure.
If you notice when I shifted to the .2 ICS the car recorded immediately better numbers but with LOWER boost. I was surprised with that but thinking that the BOSCH ecu works with required torque then I believe that with lower IATs, the ecu was able to go to the most aggressive ignition map and thus did not need max boost to make the required torque (which further reduced IATs..).
The flip side of that strategy is that you need good fuel to run with high (20xx degs) ignition timing. Also that GT2 intake is necessary with all its advantages and drawbacks (i seem to be the only one believing that it is better that tt intake for this power levels).
Bottom line, my opinion is that while it makes sense to try more ICs (to maybe find the magical one!), the issue will always be the boost you run on those VTGs to achieve your required power..
the tests were done with 100 octane greek fuel (anyone's guess what that really is these days but I can tell you that the car runs significantly better with 98 france/swiss/ italian etc fuel as nowadays quality is horrendous over there) + torco. My guess is that this brings it to equivalent of 100-102 octane pump fuel.
The spray system was used in both runs with water in ambient temp. (i.e. no ice etc). I have not been able to measure the effect as I don't think that spray significantly reduces iats on the run (maybe max 3-5 degrees?). I believe it mainly helps with heat soak, i.e. recovery between runs. Also I am using a smaller pump for weight reasons and thus spraying mist at a lot lower density than other systems. (wiper bottle lasts decent amount of time!)
The issue comparing ICs with different setups is that tuning strategy changes everything. Thats why i tried 2 coolers (stock .1 was a waste of time as it never worked anyway for this power) on same car almost back to back.
Now looking at your data I think it will be very difficult to control IATs with any IC (that I know of) while running 1.55 boost constantly. I am not sure what turbos you have etc but its anyones guess what kind of back pressure is built in the system with such boost and everything else stock. This is where heat comes from and beyond a certain point there is no return..
In my car we are using a GT2 intake, running very lean, and with very high ignition timing. Also i have GT2 titanium exhaust with 100 cells and flaps which means that at WOT there is literally almost 0 backpressure.
If you notice when I shifted to the .2 ICS the car recorded immediately better numbers but with LOWER boost. I was surprised with that but thinking that the BOSCH ecu works with required torque then I believe that with lower IATs, the ecu was able to go to the most aggressive ignition map and thus did not need max boost to make the required torque (which further reduced IATs..).
The flip side of that strategy is that you need good fuel to run with high (20xx degs) ignition timing. Also that GT2 intake is necessary with all its advantages and drawbacks (i seem to be the only one believing that it is better that tt intake for this power levels).
Bottom line, my opinion is that while it makes sense to try more ICs (to maybe find the magical one!), the issue will always be the boost you run on those VTGs to achieve your required power..
03-13-2012, 09:13 AM
#362
Hi George,
Thanks for information , i have ordered the CTR coolers and will conduct a test and see..
Thanks for information , i have ordered the CTR coolers and will conduct a test and see..
Hi TTurbine,
the tests were done with 100 octane greek fuel (anyone's guess what that really is these days but I can tell you that the car runs significantly better with 98 france/swiss/ italian etc fuel as nowadays quality is horrendous over there) + torco. My guess is that this brings it to equivalent of 100-102 octane pump fuel.
The spray system was used in both runs with water in ambient temp. (i.e. no ice etc). I have not been able to measure the effect as I don't think that spray significantly reduces iats on the run (maybe max 3-5 degrees?). I believe it mainly helps with heat soak, i.e. recovery between runs. Also I am using a smaller pump for weight reasons and thus spraying mist at a lot lower density than other systems. (wiper bottle lasts decent amount of time!)
The issue comparing ICs with different setups is that tuning strategy changes everything. Thats why i tried 2 coolers (stock .1 was a waste of time as it never worked anyway for this power) on same car almost back to back.
Now looking at your data I think it will be very difficult to control IATs with any IC (that I know of) while running 1.55 boost constantly. I am not sure what turbos you have etc but its anyones guess what kind of back pressure is built in the system with such boost and everything else stock. This is where heat comes from and beyond a certain point there is no return..
In my car we are using a GT2 intake, running very lean, and with very high ignition timing. Also i have GT2 titanium exhaust with 100 cells and flaps which means that at WOT there is literally almost 0 backpressure.
If you notice when I shifted to the .2 ICS the car recorded immediately better numbers but with LOWER boost. I was surprised with that but thinking that the BOSCH ecu works with required torque then I believe that with lower IATs, the ecu was able to go to the most aggressive ignition map and thus did not need max boost to make the required torque (which further reduced IATs..).
The flip side of that strategy is that you need good fuel to run with high (20xx degs) ignition timing. Also that GT2 intake is necessary with all its advantages and drawbacks (i seem to be the only one believing that it is better that tt intake for this power levels).
Bottom line, my opinion is that while it makes sense to try more ICs (to maybe find the magical one!), the issue will always be the boost you run on those VTGs to achieve your required power..
the tests were done with 100 octane greek fuel (anyone's guess what that really is these days but I can tell you that the car runs significantly better with 98 france/swiss/ italian etc fuel as nowadays quality is horrendous over there) + torco. My guess is that this brings it to equivalent of 100-102 octane pump fuel.
The spray system was used in both runs with water in ambient temp. (i.e. no ice etc). I have not been able to measure the effect as I don't think that spray significantly reduces iats on the run (maybe max 3-5 degrees?). I believe it mainly helps with heat soak, i.e. recovery between runs. Also I am using a smaller pump for weight reasons and thus spraying mist at a lot lower density than other systems. (wiper bottle lasts decent amount of time!)
The issue comparing ICs with different setups is that tuning strategy changes everything. Thats why i tried 2 coolers (stock .1 was a waste of time as it never worked anyway for this power) on same car almost back to back.
Now looking at your data I think it will be very difficult to control IATs with any IC (that I know of) while running 1.55 boost constantly. I am not sure what turbos you have etc but its anyones guess what kind of back pressure is built in the system with such boost and everything else stock. This is where heat comes from and beyond a certain point there is no return..
In my car we are using a GT2 intake, running very lean, and with very high ignition timing. Also i have GT2 titanium exhaust with 100 cells and flaps which means that at WOT there is literally almost 0 backpressure.
If you notice when I shifted to the .2 ICS the car recorded immediately better numbers but with LOWER boost. I was surprised with that but thinking that the BOSCH ecu works with required torque then I believe that with lower IATs, the ecu was able to go to the most aggressive ignition map and thus did not need max boost to make the required torque (which further reduced IATs..).
The flip side of that strategy is that you need good fuel to run with high (20xx degs) ignition timing. Also that GT2 intake is necessary with all its advantages and drawbacks (i seem to be the only one believing that it is better that tt intake for this power levels).
Bottom line, my opinion is that while it makes sense to try more ICs (to maybe find the magical one!), the issue will always be the boost you run on those VTGs to achieve your required power..
04-30-2012, 03:17 PM
#363
So , The CTR coolers have arrived a few weeks back , i just got the chance to fit them today , me and my mechanic struggled to get them sealed properly as the upper ducting is not 100% sealed , just maybe 1mm or less ( I dont know if it will have any effect on the ICs efficiancy) but we managed to put a sealent between the ducts which is used to seal front window sheilds, i dont know if it will keep up with all the heat but we will see.. I dont know if it is 100% sealed or not after the sealent..( See picture below)
The weather is getting really hot and humid here 30 Degs at night with 40% humidity no wind at all..
So i thought i would do an initial testing to see how they compare to the 997.2 ICs with 1.55bar of boost ( No spray , race fuel , octane booster , meth injection) just plain 97 octane gas thats been sitting on my cars tank for 1 month now... I was planning to do a run up to 300kmh but my car has zero front rubber and it was scary even at 4th gear limiter..
As some of you know i have been seing crazy high IATs after i fitted the 997.2 coolers ( Many have said that even CTR/Secans wont help as my cars programming is too aggressive)
At 4th gear 63xx RPMs on 4th gear my IATs were 59Deg and ambient temperature was 18 Deg which equates to 41 deg above ambient which is pretty hot for 18 deg ambient temperature..
The CTR ICs i tested today managed to get to 52deg at 63xx RPMs at 30 Deg ambient & 40% humidity which equates 22deg above ambient.. which compared to the 41deg climb that 997.2 ICs is exceptional..
Below is the attached data ( Sorry tried to convert it into a graph so that its easier to view but it throwed arabic numbericals all over the values)
On the other hand the car feels less restrictive and boost seems to come earlier with a nice woosh sound with CTR ICs
Thank you Toby for helping develop this amazing IC..
The weather is getting really hot and humid here 30 Degs at night with 40% humidity no wind at all..
So i thought i would do an initial testing to see how they compare to the 997.2 ICs with 1.55bar of boost ( No spray , race fuel , octane booster , meth injection) just plain 97 octane gas thats been sitting on my cars tank for 1 month now... I was planning to do a run up to 300kmh but my car has zero front rubber and it was scary even at 4th gear limiter..
As some of you know i have been seing crazy high IATs after i fitted the 997.2 coolers ( Many have said that even CTR/Secans wont help as my cars programming is too aggressive)
At 4th gear 63xx RPMs on 4th gear my IATs were 59Deg and ambient temperature was 18 Deg which equates to 41 deg above ambient which is pretty hot for 18 deg ambient temperature..
The CTR ICs i tested today managed to get to 52deg at 63xx RPMs at 30 Deg ambient & 40% humidity which equates 22deg above ambient.. which compared to the 41deg climb that 997.2 ICs is exceptional..
Below is the attached data ( Sorry tried to convert it into a graph so that its easier to view but it throwed arabic numbericals all over the values)
On the other hand the car feels less restrictive and boost seems to come earlier with a nice woosh sound with CTR ICs
Thank you Toby for helping develop this amazing IC..
Last edited by TTurbine; 02-07-2014 at 05:22 PM.
11-25-2012, 11:27 AM
#368
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Not sure what "they" means ?
If you mean what CTR would sell you and what Cargraphic would sell you then I would say they are pretty similar.
Mine doesn't have the Porsche clip fitment whereas I think they put that on now.
The end tanks look slightly different in the pics on the Cargraphic site, mine were hand done at Marston MS, maybe they get someone else to do them now ?
The cores I think are the same, they are sized on the AWE units which are 37% fatter than stock (according to AWE) so they have the 14 channels with extra depth (compared to stock size), the guys fabricating the cores were also producing F1 radiators.....
If you mean what CTR would sell you and what Cargraphic would sell you then I would say they are pretty similar.
Mine doesn't have the Porsche clip fitment whereas I think they put that on now.
The end tanks look slightly different in the pics on the Cargraphic site, mine were hand done at Marston MS, maybe they get someone else to do them now ?
The cores I think are the same, they are sized on the AWE units which are 37% fatter than stock (according to AWE) so they have the 14 channels with extra depth (compared to stock size), the guys fabricating the cores were also producing F1 radiators.....
11-25-2012, 12:41 PM
#369
Not sure what "they" means ?
If you mean what CTR would sell you and what Cargraphic would sell you then I would say they are pretty similar.
Mine doesn't have the Porsche clip fitment whereas I think they put that on now.
The end tanks look slightly different in the pics on the Cargraphic site, mine were hand done at Marston MS, maybe they get someone else to do them now ?
The cores I think are the same, they are sized on the AWE units which are 37% fatter than stock (according to AWE) so they have the 14 channels with extra depth (compared to stock size), the guys fabricating the cores were also producing F1 radiators.....
If you mean what CTR would sell you and what Cargraphic would sell you then I would say they are pretty similar.
Mine doesn't have the Porsche clip fitment whereas I think they put that on now.
The end tanks look slightly different in the pics on the Cargraphic site, mine were hand done at Marston MS, maybe they get someone else to do them now ?
The cores I think are the same, they are sized on the AWE units which are 37% fatter than stock (according to AWE) so they have the 14 channels with extra depth (compared to stock size), the guys fabricating the cores were also producing F1 radiators.....
That's exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks Toby.
01-23-2013, 10:26 PM
#373
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So I have read this thread from start to finish and admit the math is above my head but much apreciated. It's really a shame that some organization has never been created that would independently test various after aren't components on a apples to apples basis so that the near mortal in this world could make an intelligent Decesion based upon fact not hype.
That said all the effort put into the thread and it's data is much apreciated.
That said all the effort put into the thread and it's data is much apreciated.
05-02-2013, 02:52 PM
#374
Guys,
Looks like 034Motorsport has released a groundbreaking intercooler core design. We can only hope that they will soon include them in Porsche applications. Watch out Bell!
http://www.034motorsport.com/engine-...t-p-23598.html
Looks like 034Motorsport has released a groundbreaking intercooler core design. We can only hope that they will soon include them in Porsche applications. Watch out Bell!
http://www.034motorsport.com/engine-...t-p-23598.html
