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Best 997GT2 intercooler

 
Old 04-06-2009, 12:30 PM
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Default Best 997GT2 intercooler

Original post deleted.....

Unfortunately I do not have the scan tool to do the test and the test I intend to do only gets 1 shot (travelling to Germany to get the stage 2 RS engine mapped adjusted to suit my engine/intercoolers) and my instincts/experience/previous testing say that the intricate fin intercoolers like Secan/Marston are much better than the bigger finned stuff (hence why they cost so much)...
I will use your end tanks as they seem the best and give credit where it is due.........
There is no hidden agenda, like everyone else I want the best but don't want to pay stupid money for it....

Last edited by TB993tt; 04-06-2009 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:20 PM
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Toby,

It's your money, so you can do what you want with it.

But our "generic cores" or anything but generic. We have them built to our exact specs, including number/size of charge rows and fin count on both the ambient/charge side.

Too dense of a fin count results in flow restrictions, both on the ambient and charge sides. It is a fine balance between providing exposed area for heat exchange and low restriction for air flow to carry out the heat exchange.

I think a simple scan tool test would have been very educational for the forum readers. I am sad to see you jump to conclusions like this.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:34 PM
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Further, that first pic you posted is just a cropped version of what has always been on our site.

http://awe-tuning.com/media/products...6_IC_close.jpg

You did not have to order up a set of our ICs to see our fin count. I shared all that info already with you via PMs, too.

Seems you already have your mind made up on who's product is the "best" without any actual empirical testing and just needed a quick fix for an end tank source.

And since you have stated above that all end tanks "are the same", that effectively eliminates any possibility in your eyes of our end tank engineering design work having any positive influence on what you may see when mating them up to different cores.

There seems to be a serious hidden agenda here to not give credit where credit is due.

Sorry, but this really gets my knickers in a twist!
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Old 04-06-2009, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TB993tt View Post
Original post deleted.....

Unfortunately I do not have the scan tool to do the test and the test I intend to do only gets 1 shot (travelling to Germany to get the stage 2 RS engine mapped adjusted to suit my engine/intercoolers) and my instincts/experience/previous testing say that the intricate fin intercoolers like Secan/Marston are much better than the bigger finned stuff (hence why they cost so much)...
I will use your end tanks as they seem the best and give credit where it is due.........
There is no hidden agenda, like everyone else I want the best but don't want to pay stupid money for it....
Toby,

So I guess you can say that despite doing no actual testing on a 997 platform, you are assuming our cores are inferior based on older experiences you have.

And knowing that we used that core spec well in advance of your purchase date, that means you purchased our intercoolers with the full intention of chopping them apart to scavenge their end tanks.

So that leaves us wondering why you asked for and were granted a significant courtesy discount in exchange for us being assured they will be given full credit in the various events which you like to document on the various forums.

We feel used and abused here and we think the forum readers deserve more, too.

Using a core spec designed for 400mph+ low density ambient airflow, like on an airplane, does not automatically result in proper results when used on a road car. Completely different operating contexts.
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Old 04-06-2009, 06:56 PM
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Todd,
Since I ordered I had a mediocre report about your units from a respected source.... I am NOT saying they won't be better than stock but I want as close to Secan as possible.
It was after this report then seeing the "generic looking" wide fin spacing "in the flesh" that I realised I didn't want to go through the rigmarole of having them fitted (then discover after investing in the time, ££££ and effort of going to Germany to get the engine mapped) to be told they are "mediocre"

I accept that I misled you, (my intentions changed due to the above) and if you feel you gave me too much promo discount please charge any extra to my card.

Alternatively I could send you the cores back.....

Last edited by TB993tt; 04-07-2009 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 04-07-2009, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Todd/A.W.E. View Post
Toby,

So I guess you can say that despite doing no actual testing on a 997 platform, you are assuming our cores are inferior based on older experiences you have.
My experiences are on the 993tt engine - in case you don't know it is pretty damn close to a 997tt engine in terms of what the intercoolers do - you tell me different ?
Originally Posted by Todd/A.W.E. View Post
And knowing that we used that core spec well in advance of your purchase date, that means you purchased our intercoolers with the full intention of chopping them apart to scavenge their end tanks..
What "core spec" - what does that mean to you ?
Seeing in the flesh makes all the difference I'm afraid - these cores do not belong on a $150K Porsche IMO and have you felt how heavy they are ???

Originally Posted by Todd/A.W.E. View Post
So that leaves us wondering why you asked for and were granted a significant courtesy discount in exchange for us being assured they will be given full credit in the various events which you like to document on the various forums..
My intentions changed when I saw them in the flesh and fitting these to my car is not an option.

Originally Posted by Todd/A.W.E. View Post
We feel used and abused here and we think the forum readers deserve more, too..
Don't feel abused, you are charging me full price now as per your email because I will obviously be not be saying what you thought you had paid for ?.... why not do forum readers a favour and instead of the BS Excel style "averaged dyno/street formularised data" why don't you do a simple back to back test with a stock car on the road with real data to show how good they are
like this; https://rennlist.com/forums/5380527-post24.html
- why expect customers to do this ?
Originally Posted by Todd/A.W.E. View Post
Using a core spec designed for 400mph+ low density ambient airflow, like on an airplane, does not automatically result in proper results when used on a road car. Completely different operating contexts.
Looking at these cores I don't think you have a clue TBH
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:03 PM
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Toby,

My point is simple:

You knew before you ordered our intercoolers what our fin count and charge row count was. I shared that info with you in PMs and you even posted a year old close up picture from our site that shows the fin count density.

So that begs the question why you ordered our intercoolers at all. You've always known what their specs were, and those specs never met your standards in the past.

It is clear that you never intended to actually run them on your car. You just needed to strip off their end tanks so you could insert the Secan style cores you already had in your possession. I realize now that you had a firm date to get your car tuned in Germany and could not find anyone local to fab you up a set of end tanks in time. I find it sad that you actually asked us for a discount when ordering in exchange for publishing data (whether good or bad) and we actually gave you that discount.

You have been a well respected member of this community and others. This would have been a prime opportunity for you to independently test a $3k set of intercoolers and end all the speculation.

Not only did you not do that, you never intended to do that, and further, you publicly tore down our choice of core without even actually testing them, even though you now have them in your hands.

I find this all disheartening as in the end it makes all us forum members look at your test results with a jaundiced eye. It is apparent that you have your own preferred list of equipment and have no real intention to fairly test anyone else's, despite your claims otherwise.

We're not going to charge you the balance on the discount we extended. We'll just chalk this up to experience and go on about our business. We're just greatly disappointed in your acts.
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Todd/A.W.E. View Post
Toby,

My point is simple:

You knew before you ordered our intercoolers what our fin count and charge row count was. I shared that info with you in PMs and you even posted a year old close up picture from our site that shows the fin count density. .
Where did you share that information ? I don't have it anywhere and TBH the fin count means nothing to me really, your row count is the same as all the other US ones - is it 13 rows ?

Originally Posted by Todd/A.W.E. View Post
So that begs the question why you ordered our intercoolers at all. You've always known what their specs were, and those specs never met your standards in the past..
I got the vision and ordered enthusiastically

Originally Posted by Todd/A.W.E. View Post
It is clear that you never intended to actually run them on your car. You just needed to strip off their end tanks so you could insert the Secan style cores you already had in your possession. I realize now that you had a firm date to get your car tuned in Germany and could not find anyone local to fab you up a set of end tanks in time. I find it sad that you actually asked us for a discount when ordering in exchange for publishing data (whether good or bad) and we actually gave you that discount..
This is so wrong !
I don't have any Secan style cores in my possession, I had a firm date in Germany it was the 16th March and I was going to go with your I/Cs (I had my car booked in with my mechanic this week - you could call him !!) until I saw those cores !
This will undoubtably and sadly surprise you but to get cores made from companies like Marston requires a lot of calculations nothing is off the shelf, no numbers have been crunched yet, the only Porsche turbo I/Cs they have made so far are one for a 993tt and two for a 935....
When I asked for the discount I intended to do what I say above....

Originally Posted by Todd/A.W.E. View Post
You have been a well respected member of this community and others. This would have been a prime opportunity for you to independently test a $3k set of intercoolers and end all the speculation..
But going all the way to Germany (where the testing will be done) with these would be a waste of my time and money, I have 1 shot at the test and I am not wasting it with these.....

Originally Posted by Todd/A.W.E. View Post
Not only did you not do that, you never intended to do that, and further, you publicly tore down our choice of core without even actually testing them, even though you now have them in your hands..
They are still intact, I haven't touched them yet - In fact if YOU do a road test full power through the revs up to 4th gear and log it like:https://rennlist.com/forums/5380527-post24.html
If the IAT remains within 15DegC of ambient I will gladly use the I/Cs and will even pay $1000 towards the testing since it will save me plenty not having to use other cores - do it please, you are the engineers


Originally Posted by Todd/A.W.E. View Post
I find this all disheartening as in the end it makes all us forum members look at your test results with a jaundiced eye. It is apparent that you have your own preferred list of equipment and have no real intention to fairly test anyone else's, despite your claims otherwise..
As I said before, like everyone else I want the best for the least money and have no preferred equipment - hell I have purchased a Secan before for the 993tt at $20K and I will NOT be buying another, even tho' they work it is just too much !!
I think you can let other RLers decide who on here is selling and who is the customer
Originally Posted by Todd/A.W.E. View Post
We're not going to charge you the balance on the discount we extended. We'll just chalk this up to experience and go on about our business. We're just greatly disappointed in your acts.
So your email to me requesting "my authorisation" to charge the full price was an attempt to get me to say no so you could really say that I used you etc... charge me full price, I accept I didn't do what I said/intended but please do not make me out to be a cheapskate !

Edit:
Increased testing contribution to reflect discounted product !
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:42 PM
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Don't like being called a liar - here is an extract of a PM I sent to Eclou on 2nd Aprilduring my excitement:

So....... I have a set of AWE I/Cs winging their way over the atlantic as we speak
My plan is to have these fitted before I go to De so they do not see them and then the idea is when they go on the road they will notice (because of the AWE I/Cs) a large amount of headroom with the IAT (since the 600PS/787NM program is mapped for the stock I/Cs) and will be able to add some more boost at the top end to take advantage of this headroom...

Well that is the plan, but I have to say I am soooo nervous about the AWE I/Cs, all my instinct says they are probably not much better than stock once on the road at speed, but the data presenation from AWE looks compelling (although I am still worried that blowing a fixed airflow through I/Cs on a dyno is not giving the stock I/Cs a proper showing ?) and compelling enough to give them a shot....
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:27 PM
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Your request had fortuitous timing. We just happened to be collecting data on the "street" today for some intermediate stock turbo packages we are fine tuning. The graph below is data extracted by our Race Technology DL1 logger. Stock turbos, ~65F ambient temps:



I added a red index marker at 6400 rpms so you can easily compare it to the data logs on our site which were done in 4th gear up to 6400 rpms. You can see how similar the graphs overlay, which shows how our dyno data is valid despite your doubts. And if we see this with our intercoolers in place, you can reasonably extrapolate that the stock intercooler data on our site is valid, too:

http://awe-tuning.com/pages/info/con...cfm?content=63

This was just a coincidental test that we did today, but we already examined our track intercooler data long ago that verified our dyno vs real world testing.
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Old 04-07-2009, 10:41 PM
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Toby I think you will be very happy with the performance of the intercoolers. I do think that the veracity of AWE's R&D will be demonstrated by the testing that you plan to do. Frankly, I look forward to the results!

I know that other companies make somewhat more specious claims with their kits. Just as an example, the latest Texas Mile had a "850hp" car turn an impressive 196 mph. This tuner's 750 kit turned 190 mph previously. The 6 mph "improvement" though looks much worse when scrutinize - the 190 mph was achieved going into a 20 mph headwind, and the 196 mph was achieved with a 20-25 mph tailwind. By aero drag calcs the 196 mph was achieved even though there was >150 hp less aero drag to overcome. So did how much power did the "850" car have - my guess would be less than claimed.
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Old 04-08-2009, 06:56 AM
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Todd
Thanks for the chart.......

In your chart above on a 18DegC ambient day we have:

accelrating at 6100rpm in 3rd 31DegC
by 7000rpm in 3rd 38DegC
by 6900rpm in 4th 45DegC

So by max revs in 4th we have 27DegC above ambient.... your chart on the promo site shows 14DegC - I guess you decided to only show up to this point ?

If we look at the testing we did on the 993tts which starts in 3rd gear in the link below which was also on a ~18DegC day you can see that the stock intercoolers also get to ~45DegC by the end of 4th gear !

I realise the testing is not exactly the same (although if you look at the boost on the 993tt below it is running at over 1.2bar) but surely you can grasp where I am coming from - on the surface the improvements are hard for me to spot.....
https://rennlist.com/forums/5380527-post24.html

According to my data from my 993tt mapping timing will be pulled 2.25% at 45degC so on a DIN temp day ~18DegC we have timing pull by the end of 4th gear..... (caveat that I have no idea if the 997tt timing stage pulls are the same ?)

Last edited by TB993tt; 04-08-2009 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:17 PM
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Ok, we just could not let this one lie without officially putting it to bed.

Even though we had done extensive street/track logging during original development, we did not have all the data condensed into one file as requested in this thread. Instead of digging out the old data, we went back and collected new data.

For your viewing pleasure I first present a spread across 3rd and 4th gear showing stock and AWE IATs vs RPMs, ambient temp, and boost pressure:



Second, I present the 4th gear portions of these logs alone so as to mimic your testing as close as possible. I formulated this graphing in both degrees F and degrees C. Notice the ~17-18C max above ambient our ICs run even with the higher boost you had on your test car...






Your comments are welcomed.
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:01 PM
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Todd....looks like I may be breaking out some humble pie

Can you say did you use the same car and swap the coolers round ?
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:08 PM
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No, these were two separate cars tested on the same day. We just did not have time to swap parts on the same car. While that is what we prefer to do during product development to minimize variables, we felt ok doing it for this test due to the same hardware used between the two cars and how they both dynoed within a few hp of each other.

One car does have slightly different aero bits vs the other, but this data mimics what we saw during original product development, so it is sound. It may not exhibit the same results when subjecting the stock intercoolers to larger turbos with higher boost, but it does still show a very tangible improvement even with chipped stock turbos.
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