GT3 is faster than the RS
06-27-2007, 11:50 AM
#76
Here is the pdf for the RS in Europe.
http://www.porsche.com/all/media/pdf...T3_MY07_gb.pdf
Air con is standard.
So 02 Carrera's babbling on in his post has zero merit, what's even more ridiculous is that people replied thanking him for a thoughful and enlightening post?
Huh?
http://www.porsche.com/all/media/pdf...T3_MY07_gb.pdf
Air con is standard.
So 02 Carrera's babbling on in his post has zero merit, what's even more ridiculous is that people replied thanking him for a thoughful and enlightening post?
Huh?
06-27-2007, 11:52 AM
#77
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by 02 Carrera
Keep in mind this is a US GT3 vs US GT3 RS. In Europe, the GT3 RS comes standard with lightweight racing seats, plastic instead of glass rear window and a standard absence of A/C. In the US, we don't get the lightweight seats or rear glass and the A/C delete is an option. Yes, some of the body parts like the lid and spoiler are lighter being carbon, but also keep in mind the the RS is a widebody which is heavier than the narrow body. So bascially, this evens it out. The RS uses the same coilovers, sway bars, brakes, wheels and tires as the regular GT3. Also has anyone else noticed that the base curb weights between the GT3 and the RS is 44 lbs (20 kg), but this is for the GT3 with A/C and the RS without. Porsche has plainly stated that the lack of A/C save exactly 44 lbs (20 kg). Hmm...not much of a difference for the dollars. If fact, it would be rediculous to have an RS unless it had the A/C delete and PCCB brakes as options. After all, the whole intent is for lighter weight.
One other thing is for top speed and acceleration, aerodynamic forces increase at a cubed rate. As a fact, weight has nothing to do with top speed. Instead top speed is determined by hp versus coefficient of friction times frontal area. There is a factor here since the RS is built as a wide body and has a greater frontal area. Since the GT3 and RS both have the same coefficient of drag, but the RS has a bigger frontal area; it is physically impossible (by the laws of physics) for an RS to accelerate at high speed at the same rate as the regular GT3.
I have to agree that the $17K is a lot to pay for some graphics, colored wheels, wheel spacers and split control arms, but I don't belive bringing the RS to the US was done for performance. It was really done for marketing and profits. Look what has happened to the majority of the RS's that have come into the country: they have either ended up in collector hands or by resellers looking to make a quick buck, not in the hands of anyone capable of using the cars to there true potential. It doesn't really matter in the end if there is a perfomance improvement with the RS or not, only that a few BELIEVE there is to justify the extra money. Porsche is in the business of selling cars after all. Porsche has certainly accomplished this. The regular GT3's on the other hand, do see to be getting more into the right hands. I recently did a track weekend where I got to run with 4 of them.
I hope the next generation RS will be more in the true spirit of the RS cars of the 70's: at least a couple hundred lbs lighter and include more race oriented bits from the RSR, somthing more deserving the higher exclusivity and price.
One other thing is for top speed and acceleration, aerodynamic forces increase at a cubed rate. As a fact, weight has nothing to do with top speed. Instead top speed is determined by hp versus coefficient of friction times frontal area. There is a factor here since the RS is built as a wide body and has a greater frontal area. Since the GT3 and RS both have the same coefficient of drag, but the RS has a bigger frontal area; it is physically impossible (by the laws of physics) for an RS to accelerate at high speed at the same rate as the regular GT3.
I have to agree that the $17K is a lot to pay for some graphics, colored wheels, wheel spacers and split control arms, but I don't belive bringing the RS to the US was done for performance. It was really done for marketing and profits. Look what has happened to the majority of the RS's that have come into the country: they have either ended up in collector hands or by resellers looking to make a quick buck, not in the hands of anyone capable of using the cars to there true potential. It doesn't really matter in the end if there is a perfomance improvement with the RS or not, only that a few BELIEVE there is to justify the extra money. Porsche is in the business of selling cars after all. Porsche has certainly accomplished this. The regular GT3's on the other hand, do see to be getting more into the right hands. I recently did a track weekend where I got to run with 4 of them.
I hope the next generation RS will be more in the true spirit of the RS cars of the 70's: at least a couple hundred lbs lighter and include more race oriented bits from the RSR, somthing more deserving the higher exclusivity and price.
End of discussion
06-27-2007, 12:00 PM
#78
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by RS 197
I came the the conclusion that the RS was not worth it. I gave up my RS spot for a regular GT3. Am I pissed about it, sure I am. I should have kept both. Sold the RS for $40K over and I would be into my GT3 $78K.
My regular old GT3 is just fine, I think it is has a little more daily driver feel to it than an RS would. A little more common, you know, an "anyone can have one" feel to it, suttle and off the radar. It is not an RS but man does it feel good, No big wing or racy script, but that's o.k. It works for me. I even let my dog ride in the back. I picked up a flat of strawberry's in it last week. No way I would have subject an RS to that kind of activity. I drove down a dirt road to get to the Stawberry patch, God forbid in an RS. If I had stepped up and got the real deal, the pitted windshield, rock chips, and coffee stains would have realy **** me off.
To me it is kind of like the lake house........ 1/2 the size of home, you can wear your shoes inside, the landscaping is a little edgy, needs a pressure wash, roof leaks and there isn't any Granite on the counter tops, but I enjoy it more than home??? Go figure.
My regular old GT3 is just fine, I think it is has a little more daily driver feel to it than an RS would. A little more common, you know, an "anyone can have one" feel to it, suttle and off the radar. It is not an RS but man does it feel good, No big wing or racy script, but that's o.k. It works for me. I even let my dog ride in the back. I picked up a flat of strawberry's in it last week. No way I would have subject an RS to that kind of activity. I drove down a dirt road to get to the Stawberry patch, God forbid in an RS. If I had stepped up and got the real deal, the pitted windshield, rock chips, and coffee stains would have realy **** me off.
To me it is kind of like the lake house........ 1/2 the size of home, you can wear your shoes inside, the landscaping is a little edgy, needs a pressure wash, roof leaks and there isn't any Granite on the counter tops, but I enjoy it more than home??? Go figure.
Sure I love my RS but I love to drive it too...all the time...both street and track. Isn't that the reason why we wanted one? And chips, wear & tear, depreciation and risk of wadding it on track or getting rear ended by an SUV on the street are all part of the ownership/driving experience. Enjoy the friggin car...life's too short not to!
06-27-2007, 12:04 PM
#79
02Carrera it sounds like you are just guessing about things.
If you are in fact an engineer, I apologize BUT according to EVO magazine Issue 098, Walter Rohrl lapped a GT3 at the Ring at a time of 7:45. He also lapped his RS (according to the same article) on a public day, damp track, and having to pass 5 cars at 7:42. Further in the article, Rohrl said that the quicker time of the RS was made up in the fast sections of the track due to the extra downforce that the wings and wide body give to the RS - which is contrary to what you are saying.
If you are in fact an engineer, I apologize BUT according to EVO magazine Issue 098, Walter Rohrl lapped a GT3 at the Ring at a time of 7:45. He also lapped his RS (according to the same article) on a public day, damp track, and having to pass 5 cars at 7:42. Further in the article, Rohrl said that the quicker time of the RS was made up in the fast sections of the track due to the extra downforce that the wings and wide body give to the RS - which is contrary to what you are saying.
06-27-2007, 12:07 PM
#80
Further, if you have read any of the magazine articles, or saw the video of Chris Harris comparing the RS to the Gallardo SL, Veyron, AM, and R8, you will notice how he comments on how compliant the RS is when you need it to be - that it definitely and surprisingly is a daily ride as much as the GT3 is.
Please tell us why you are so DOWN on the RS. It has been rated by drivers/owners and magazine articles alike as the best road car ever.
Please tell us why you are so DOWN on the RS. It has been rated by drivers/owners and magazine articles alike as the best road car ever.
06-27-2007, 12:12 PM
#81
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by BobbyC
Amazing why you guys are so paranoid about messing up an RS but not a GT3? They're both just cars and meant to be driven. Why do people feel feel it's ok to drive, track and beat up a 3 but not the RS? Just 'cause one cost $15k more than othe other?
That being said, I think you have the right approach - just drive it! I can assure you that if I had one in my possesion it would be converted to ROW specs and primarily tracked... though I have to concur, it is a gorgeous car which has value as pure art in a well lite garage!
-B
06-27-2007, 12:13 PM
#82
I'm Still Jenny
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Originally Posted by RR
Further in the article, Rohrl said that the quicker time of the RS was made up in the fast sections of the track due to the extra downforce that the wings and wide body give to the RS - which is contrary to what you are saying.
06-27-2007, 12:16 PM
#83
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As far as Walter Rohrl's times at the ring, they may be clouded by the fact that Porsche needs the RS to be faster. I'm not bashing anything here as I would have definately paid the premium for the RS if I could have gotten one. As it is, I was lucky to get the 3. However, there are a number of 3's at my track and an RS (driven by a very good driver) and the raw performance of the two cars seem to be very close. If you think about what the RS is supposed to imply, I think it is a disappointment but to say the 3 is the better car is just sour grapes. I think the only people that have 3's and claim the car is better than the RS are trying to justify owning the 3.
06-27-2007, 12:30 PM
#84
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Originally Posted by WHB Porsche
No it's not. The 'Ring has TURNS, in which downforce helps (especially at high speeds). But downforce in and of itself produces drag, which slows one down as far as straight-line acceleration goes.
I applaud all that track their RS. I understand the position of those that do not.
06-27-2007, 01:03 PM
#85
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by WHB Porsche
. . . which slows one down as far as straight-line acceleration goes.
Originally Posted by OldGuy
Jeff
Old guy comes from my mountain bike racing days (early 40's) and the kids I trained with used to
say "Whos the Old Guy at the back of the pack?"
Funny -they ask the same thing at the track nowadays!
Old guy comes from my mountain bike racing days (early 40's) and the kids I trained with used to
say "Whos the Old Guy at the back of the pack?"
Funny -they ask the same thing at the track nowadays!
no callin yourself old when you're a teensie bit younger than me!.
may have early onset alzheimer's though if below isnt two dif people!?
Originally Posted by OldGuy
"Nashville . . . friend of mine"
"my friend in the midwest"
"my friend in the midwest"
06-27-2007, 01:04 PM
#86
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Widebodied 911's have always had more high speed drag than the narrow bodied cars. The 993S's were slower at higher speeds than the narrower cars. You can't change aerodynamics and physics. Given identical powertrains, gearing, and weight a regular GT3 should hit 300 kph before a GT3RS. It probably won't be a dramatic difference, but a difference nontheless.
06-27-2007, 01:44 PM
#88
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Let's all take a chill pill and look back at what "RS" means. The spirit of the spiritual word.
In 73, 92 and 95 RS Porsche made real RS cars. These cars have many unique components that production cars did not. There were night and day different than the production based cars. I will not go into the details but they are significant. Do a search if you do not understand. There is a reason they are comanding a premion in today's market.
997 RS. very small amount of difference. Not even a power bump. I would say that it is more like an RS America than a Real RS. If the wide body was such a huge difference in track times you would think the Cup car would be built on it??? Today Porsche has to make the GT3 because there production based 997 is not made for track life. In the early days all Porsche cars could handle the track. They had to create the GT3 to keep the racing technology on the cutting edge. Porsche is in the business to make $$$$$, this RS thing is all marketing. Sure it is a great car, but should be called a GT3 S. Not RS. The spiritual word has been diluted. The ROW cars are closer to RS standards, but still fall short. The Amercian $$ has tarnished the RS name and reputation. If the Germans would blow off the U.S. like they used to, Porsche would bless there countrymen with a real RS version.
All you guy's that have one, great. Don't take all the jabs so personal, but don't pretend that you have something that is that special. You want special. Go out and buy a 73 RS, 964 RS or 993 RS now that is special.
In 73, 92 and 95 RS Porsche made real RS cars. These cars have many unique components that production cars did not. There were night and day different than the production based cars. I will not go into the details but they are significant. Do a search if you do not understand. There is a reason they are comanding a premion in today's market.
997 RS. very small amount of difference. Not even a power bump. I would say that it is more like an RS America than a Real RS. If the wide body was such a huge difference in track times you would think the Cup car would be built on it??? Today Porsche has to make the GT3 because there production based 997 is not made for track life. In the early days all Porsche cars could handle the track. They had to create the GT3 to keep the racing technology on the cutting edge. Porsche is in the business to make $$$$$, this RS thing is all marketing. Sure it is a great car, but should be called a GT3 S. Not RS. The spiritual word has been diluted. The ROW cars are closer to RS standards, but still fall short. The Amercian $$ has tarnished the RS name and reputation. If the Germans would blow off the U.S. like they used to, Porsche would bless there countrymen with a real RS version.
All you guy's that have one, great. Don't take all the jabs so personal, but don't pretend that you have something that is that special. You want special. Go out and buy a 73 RS, 964 RS or 993 RS now that is special.
06-27-2007, 02:16 PM
#90
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by RS 197
Don't take all the jabs so personal, but don't pretend that you have something that is that special. You want special. Go out and buy a 73 RS, 964 RS or 993 RS now that is special.
thanks for putting things in perspective, and for the spiritual chill pill!
