Quadcammer

perfectly understandable...and while this may come as a surprise, I like the 997 better also.

Palmbeacher

Bollocks. I challenge you to come here and drive the tri-county (Dade/Broward/ southern Palm Beach) area of S.E. Florida (which comprises Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and Boca Raton through the Palm Beaches) and not see at least three different Porsches per hour of driving. That includes 996s, 997s, 993s, 964s, Turbos, and the various GT- models. I'm not asserting Porsches are as commonplace here as Camrys (actually, E-Class Mercedes are more commonplace than Camrys here) but compared to anywhere else in the country, you would think there must be a Porsche convention somewhere, given the number of them you will see. In my office parking lot alone there are seventeen Porsches including my own. At the hospital there are eight more (not double-counting the ones at my office lot). Thirty miles south of here in Boca Raton there is a high-end boutique outdoor mall with street parking called Mizner Park. Last Saturday we and another couple had dinner there and as we were walking counted eleven Porsches, six Ferraris, two Lambos, two Astons and a McLaren SLR.

I've been to L.A., where there are probably more owned Porsches than here (it is the #1 US market region), but it is so much larger geographically that the concentration is less. I always see quite a goodly number of Porsches in Manhattan, surprising considering it's hardly someplace I'd want to drive any car let alone a Porsche, but nothing, nowhere in the USA will you see such a concentration of Porsches on a daily basis than here in SE Florida.

I honestly do understand that this is technically anecdotal, and if I were living in Chicago or Denver or San Francisco or Seattle or anywhere but here, I too would be loathe to extrapolate to conclusions. But I know this area, I know how many Porsches one typically sees. I know that new models of every high-end car appear in numbers as soon as they are released. I saw it with the 996, I saw it with the 997. But I do not see it with the 991. Add to that first-hand statements made to my face by dealership staff that the 991 has been unprecedented in its lackluster sales.

I cannot and do not assert that the 991 is not selling briskly elsewhere in the USA. I can only say that it is not selling well in South Florida, which has long been a prime market for Porsche automobiles, and has in the past been a bellwether for national sales. Perhaps by some quirk that no longer holds true. I cannot say.

SSST

PB, FWIW I see 3 or 4 P cars per hour of driving in Houston. I've seen 3 991s. But that isn't statistically significant.

Another explanation for your observation may be the South FL economy. Based on what I read, it isn't doing so hot.

I honestly don't know whether the 991 is a hit or a flop in the market.

Palmbeacher

It most certainly is, whether you assert so or you don't.

The economy here is well enough that there are plenty of new cars on the road which cost as much or in many cases more than a 991.

Neither do I--in the world market. In the #2 US region it is not selling well at all. Nothing anecdotal about it, that's the word first-hand from the dealership.

FnHern

+1.

I'll take it as a (skeptical) given that 991 sales are poor in S. Florida. That's certainly interesting, but there is no evidence that there is a correlation between 991 sales in S. Florida and 991 sales nationwide or internationally. Maybe there is a correlation, maybe not. I recently spent a month in the LA region and I saw several 991s. Bottom line is that the anecdotal observations make for interesting trivia, but they add nothing substantive on the larger issue as to whether 991 sales are robust or poor. Seems like the sales figures that were earlier provided are much more relevant (unless you buy into the conspiracy theory that Porsche is fibbing on the numbers.)

SSST

If you want to look at it that way, then it would refute your assertion. Houston is the 3rd largest city in the US. The are about 8 million vehicles in the greater Houston metropolitan area. (TxDMV is one of my clients so i did a quick check)

The fact that I have seen three 991s in the several hundred thousand cars I have seen in the last 9 months says they are doing pretty well.

I'm sure you'll have a come back, but since I don't personally believe your or my personal observations are relevant, it would be pointless to continue this.

Mike in CA

Yes. Look, again, I have nothing to lose personally on either side of this argument. It's simply an excercise in common sense, AFAIC. If we were arguing in a vacuum here, with no hard data of any kind, I can see where anecdotal input would carry more weight. But we do have hard numbers that indicate the car is selling relatively well at least overall even if not, perhaps, in South Florida.

The only way to deny this is a) you believe the sales numbers reflect leftover 997 sales which, given that we now have robust June numbers, gets less likely each month we move further into 2012, b) you believe the numbers are a total fake, or c) you're simply unwilling to admit your assumption of poor overall sales is probably wrong.

Palmbeacher

Or c) a rash of the dilettantes to whom the 991 is tailored have bought them in numbers, then promptly squirreled them away in their garages to be driven on Sundays between the hours of 5AM-6AM. That would lend veracity to the lofty sales figures "attributed" to Porsche execs (I wonder if they're the same ones who've been so open and forthcoming with statistics on IMS failures? Oh, wait...) whilst also explaining why so few have been spotted on the roads. Mmm, but what about the dealership salesmen and service advisors who say the 991 is selling poorly? Odd that they would lie in that direction don't you think? (That was a rhetorical question BTW. Rather obvious you do not. Think, that is.)

Mike in CA

The statements about factory expansion were attributed to Bernhard Maier, one of the Porsche execs you refer to. The sales figures, OTOH, are sourced from statistics as published by the Automotive News Data Center, an independent group that compiles stats and information for the automotive industry. I know you believe there is a global conspiracy around this issue but the numbers are ultimately verifiable.

The sales data is for the entire United States. Out of curiousity, how many dealership salesmen and service advisors have you canvassed nationwide?

Ouch. You really got me with that one.

I can't believe I'm still engaging with you on this. My bad.....

rodsky

There IS no point Mike. You CANT discuss anything rational on this topic with an individual who states his case on 1 dealership in S Florida, what he sees driving around and his Dr. buddy who bought a 550. When trying to use logic and sales figures, you will always get sucked back into that vortex of insanity.

neanicu

It is really funny for me to think what goes thru a newbie's head reading this thread. A newbie that is considering getting a 997 GTS or the 991 and comes here for help,sees the title of this thread and thinks : ' Perfect! 18 pages!!!....WOW!!! This should give me plenty insight on this choice! ' Hahahahaha...he's in for a ride,no joke!!!
This is what he'll discover :
' The 997 is a better car because : It looks better.
It tries to kill you more than the 991,because it has less nannies and shorter wheelbase...which is fun!
It feels more raw,you can feel any bump in the road,while the 991 is a transvestite Lexus.
Also,on the 997 you can see the engine,which is a big advantage over the 991!
The 991 doesn't have a handbrake,which makes the 997 better for pulling 360's in the parking lot.
The 991 is harder to DIY,yet nobody has tried,but just by looking at it...WE CAN TELL!
Also,you can tell that the 991 is a crappy attempt of a 911 because of the way the sales are going...you will realize this right away,not by looking at the numbers,but by counting them on the streets,especially in South Florida. Also,' reliable ' sources(the pretty concierge that picks up the phone : ' Hi, this is Porshhh ' ...while doing her nails,the service department driver,who picks up customers and drives cars for service,the salesman who doesn't know the difference between the Carrera and Carrera S,except it comes with an S in the back etc)from inside dealerships tell us the 991 doesn't sell well at all.
This is really entertaining and educative,please keep at it!
Thanks.

Palmbeacher

I never said they weren't. But nobody anywhere is reporting seeing more than a few 991s on the road. So if Porsche's press releases aren't, shall we say "optimistic"?, then it must follow that new 991 owners are not taking them out in public during the daytime. Perhaps that's your global conspiracy.

I've spoken with officials of Braman, Champion and The Collection here in S.E. Fl, and friends have spoken with officials at two dealerships on the Gulf coast. Same story, 991 selling dismally. After your request, this morning I've sent e-mails to Porsche-owning colleagues of mine in NYC, Baltimore, Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas, San Diego and Seattle. So far I've heard back from all but the last two (due to the time difference they're probably just finished hospital rounds as I write this) and all who have responded agreed to inquire at their local dealerships. But clearly, if the presidents of all the Porsche dealers in the US gathered to make a "We Are The World" music video and sang the sad song of 991 sales in four-part harmony, it would not stop you and others from braying your denial.

Palmbeacher

How telling is your bitterness and condescension toward working people. Resonates enormous insecurity and anger issues. I suggest you inform your therapist that the meds aren't working.

They must love you down at your dealership. My advice? Buy a locking gas cap, lest those sub-humans you refer to decide to pour a kilo of sugar in your tank as a token of their appreciation.

SARGEPUG

haha!! You should do standup!

vern1

PalmB...blowhardus spectacularus. Do people just walk up to you and smack you on the face? You just seem to bring out the best in folks with your man of the people attitude and communication skills (so many big words).

I just got back from a round trip Toronto/Milwaukee. In 1800kms I didnt see 1 Porsche - not 1. I saw 3 991's in downtown Toronto this morning. Obviously the US is not buying Porsches, are headed to oblivion and Canada will now be the world leader for P sales

The entertainment continues - you go away for a few day and now we have 18 pages of this dribble