Drove a brand new 991S and 997GTS
06-29-2012, 02:31 PM
#166
Race Director
Lets get this down to the basics and factual statements:
1. Since 1964, the 911 has become bigger, more comfortable, more refined, and more technologically advanced in each generation, while still retaining certain aspects of the original DNA.
2. The porsche 911 has always been a compromise. The 991 is no different. Based upon which way your particular sport/comfort compass reads, you can choose any number of generations, which often overlap to some degree. (i.e. 964/993 or 996/997)
3. There are things about almost every car built that someone won't like. Porsche builds cars for a well honed target audience, and that target audience does not dramatically shift from one generation to the next, hence why the "evolution" theory has been so effective.
Now, whether the 991 is too compromised for YOU is a personal choice, but the 991 is a 911, will always be a 911, and will likely come to be fondly remembered for many years, just like almost all 911s.
1. Since 1964, the 911 has become bigger, more comfortable, more refined, and more technologically advanced in each generation, while still retaining certain aspects of the original DNA.
2. The porsche 911 has always been a compromise. The 991 is no different. Based upon which way your particular sport/comfort compass reads, you can choose any number of generations, which often overlap to some degree. (i.e. 964/993 or 996/997)
3. There are things about almost every car built that someone won't like. Porsche builds cars for a well honed target audience, and that target audience does not dramatically shift from one generation to the next, hence why the "evolution" theory has been so effective.
Now, whether the 991 is too compromised for YOU is a personal choice, but the 991 is a 911, will always be a 911, and will likely come to be fondly remembered for many years, just like almost all 911s.
06-29-2012, 02:46 PM
#167
Nordschleife Master
Sorry, i completely agree with Palmbeacher. I live in Miami and work in the Gables close to the Collection. In the 5 months they have been out, I have seen maybe 20 cars, half of them being driven by the service/detailers.
I have a 997 and the 991 does not interest me one bit. I drove my friends manual 3.4 and was not impressed as i posted in another post.
I would have expected to see alot more cars on the road by now. This car is not selling well IMO.
Another dealer that deals in Exotics by the Collection has maybe one 991 and several 997s. I went by and asked them as they usually purchase the new HOT and MUST HAVE cars, all makes. He stated that the demand has been really bad. They have been in business since the 70's dealing in Exotics. He is not buying anymore at this moment. He states some people have actually came in to try to sell there 991 as they are just not happy with it.
I think Porsche has a real problem on there hands, between the high price and low demand, and luke warm reception, this does not bold well.
I have a 997 and the 991 does not interest me one bit. I drove my friends manual 3.4 and was not impressed as i posted in another post.
I would have expected to see alot more cars on the road by now. This car is not selling well IMO.
Another dealer that deals in Exotics by the Collection has maybe one 991 and several 997s. I went by and asked them as they usually purchase the new HOT and MUST HAVE cars, all makes. He stated that the demand has been really bad. They have been in business since the 70's dealing in Exotics. He is not buying anymore at this moment. He states some people have actually came in to try to sell there 991 as they are just not happy with it.
I think Porsche has a real problem on there hands, between the high price and low demand, and luke warm reception, this does not bold well.
Quad and I had our differences before,but just because he doesn't own a 997 or 991 doesn't mean he's not entitled to an opinion. He might be a little tough with you guys in his statements and probably enjoys it,but I don't think he only does it to be a TROLL.
Besides some valid points I have read here about the 991,the rest sounds just like a way to justify why you are keeping your 997.
I don't know about Quad,but I've driven the 991 twice,manual and PDK and loved it. I'm not in a rush right now and love my 996TT but a 991 might be in the works soon.
Also,when it comes to the argument about how well the 991's sell,please keep in mind the today's Global economy compared to 2005,when the 997's came out and that it's been only a few months since it's launch. It's not like they're selling hot cakes here,it's a 100K $ plus car!
So the 991's are selling bad in comparison to what?
06-29-2012, 03:22 PM
#168
Rennlist Member
That said, it is a researcheable fact that Florida (specifically South-East Florida) is the second-largest market for Porsche in the USA. California is 1st, and the Northeast (NY, NJ, Connecticut in specific) is 3rd. Porsches are uncommonly common on the streets and motorways here. Whenever a newly-redesigned model of any high-priced car appears on the market, they become quickly visible here as affluent status-seekers feed their competitive compulsion to upgrade. That the 991 is conspicuously absent from S. Florida roads is a significant data-point, from which a legitimate inference can be made. Moreover, unlike the north, one cannot correctly postulate that initial sales of the 991 in S. Florida could have been delayed by winter weather.
Finally, there are three Porsche dealerships here, one each in Dade (Miami), Broward (Ft. Lauderdale) and Palm Beach (W.Palm) counties. The one in Broward is also acknowledged as the largest Porsche dealership in the USA and has an internationally-renown motorsport division. By accounts of employees of those dealerships who frequent PCA meets, sales of the 991 have been somewhere between dismal and nil.
Finally, there are three Porsche dealerships here, one each in Dade (Miami), Broward (Ft. Lauderdale) and Palm Beach (W.Palm) counties. The one in Broward is also acknowledged as the largest Porsche dealership in the USA and has an internationally-renown motorsport division. By accounts of employees of those dealerships who frequent PCA meets, sales of the 991 have been somewhere between dismal and nil.
06-29-2012, 03:27 PM
#169
re
Besides some valid points I have read here about the 991,the rest sounds just like a way to justify why you are keeping your 997.
This is riducoulous, before i drove the 991 i wanted one, i went to see it at Champion when they had the press cars, my friend ordered one and I drove his. I have the means to get one today if I wanted too. I was just turned off with the way they drove, call me old school, but i am not alone in this opinion.
My buddy is not thrilled with his either, he also came from a 997. Last time I checked no one is wanting to trade there 458 back to a 430 or 360 Ferrari.
Something aint kosher....
This is riducoulous, before i drove the 991 i wanted one, i went to see it at Champion when they had the press cars, my friend ordered one and I drove his. I have the means to get one today if I wanted too. I was just turned off with the way they drove, call me old school, but i am not alone in this opinion.
My buddy is not thrilled with his either, he also came from a 997. Last time I checked no one is wanting to trade there 458 back to a 430 or 360 Ferrari.
Something aint kosher....
06-29-2012, 04:56 PM
#170
Nordschleife Master
Besides some valid points I have read here about the 991,the rest sounds just like a way to justify why you are keeping your 997.
This is riducoulous, before i drove the 991 i wanted one, i went to see it at Champion when they had the press cars, my friend ordered one and I drove his. I have the means to get one today if I wanted too. I was just turned off with the way they drove, call me old school, but i am not alone in this opinion.
My buddy is not thrilled with his either, he also came from a 997. Last time I checked no one is wanting to trade there 458 back to a 430 or 360 Ferrari.
Something aint kosher....
This is riducoulous, before i drove the 991 i wanted one, i went to see it at Champion when they had the press cars, my friend ordered one and I drove his. I have the means to get one today if I wanted too. I was just turned off with the way they drove, call me old school, but i am not alone in this opinion.
My buddy is not thrilled with his either, he also came from a 997. Last time I checked no one is wanting to trade there 458 back to a 430 or 360 Ferrari.
Something aint kosher....
My statement is no more ridiculous than yours,as to how you've come up with the conclusion that the 991 is not selling well!
06-29-2012, 05:57 PM
#171
Nordschleife Master
Same thing here in Sarasota. Easily 5-10 P-car sightings on a typical 2 hour errand run. I've seen two 991's so far.
06-29-2012, 05:58 PM
#172
Just as a point of fact, as opposed to anectodal evidence, per the most recent Panorama (June page 72) 911 sales for the month of April were up a "huge" (the magazine's word, not mine) 69% over April of last year. Sales of the 911 to date for 2012 are up 48% over the same period in 2011. BTW, Porsche's operating profit for the current quarter was up 18% and sales rose 32% over the previous quarter. Make of it what you will....
06-29-2012, 07:47 PM
#173
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If you post a link to any post where I said "i drive through Florida and don't see 991s so therefore 991s are not being sold", I will humbly accede. Otherwise I suggest you do some introspection regarding your anger issues. Oh, and just a helpful suggestion: if you were to have used the correct word "drivel" rather than the hilarious malapropism "dribble", you might seem less of an illiterate buffoon.
That said, it is a researcheable fact that Florida (specifically South-East Florida) is the second-largest market for Porsche in the USA. California is 1st, and the Northeast (NY, NJ, Connecticut in specific) is 3rd. Porsches are uncommonly common on the streets and motorways here. Whenever a newly-redesigned model of any high-priced car appears on the market, they become quickly visible here as affluent status-seekers feed their competitive compulsion to upgrade. That the 991 is conspicuously absent from S. Florida roads is a significant data-point, from which a legitimate inference can be made. Moreover, unlike the north, one cannot correctly postulate that initial sales of the 991 in S. Florida could have been delayed by winter weather.
Finally, there are three Porsche dealerships here, one each in Dade (Miami), Broward (Ft. Lauderdale) and Palm Beach (W.Palm) counties. The one in Broward is also acknowledged as the largest Porsche dealership in the USA and has an internationally-renown motorsport division. By accounts of employees of those dealerships who frequent PCA meets, sales of the 991 have been somewhere between dismal and nil.
If these facts disturb you, then again I suggest some introspection as to your compulsive need for affirmation, but as the saying goes, there is no need to shoot the messenger.
That said, it is a researcheable fact that Florida (specifically South-East Florida) is the second-largest market for Porsche in the USA. California is 1st, and the Northeast (NY, NJ, Connecticut in specific) is 3rd. Porsches are uncommonly common on the streets and motorways here. Whenever a newly-redesigned model of any high-priced car appears on the market, they become quickly visible here as affluent status-seekers feed their competitive compulsion to upgrade. That the 991 is conspicuously absent from S. Florida roads is a significant data-point, from which a legitimate inference can be made. Moreover, unlike the north, one cannot correctly postulate that initial sales of the 991 in S. Florida could have been delayed by winter weather.
Finally, there are three Porsche dealerships here, one each in Dade (Miami), Broward (Ft. Lauderdale) and Palm Beach (W.Palm) counties. The one in Broward is also acknowledged as the largest Porsche dealership in the USA and has an internationally-renown motorsport division. By accounts of employees of those dealerships who frequent PCA meets, sales of the 991 have been somewhere between dismal and nil.
If these facts disturb you, then again I suggest some introspection as to your compulsive need for affirmation, but as the saying goes, there is no need to shoot the messenger.
As for anger management issues, take a look in the mirror, Palmbeacher. Your posts are often full of personal insults, from the "asinine" comment that I responded to, to the personal insults that you directed at me in our last post. I always laugh (and I'm laughing now) at posters like you that are so tough and rude when posting anonymously on the Internet.
06-29-2012, 07:58 PM
#174
Lets get this down to the basics and factual statements:
1. Since 1964, the 911 has become bigger, more comfortable, more refined, and more technologically advanced in each generation, while still retaining certain aspects of the original DNA.
2. The porsche 911 has always been a compromise. The 991 is no different. Based upon which way your particular sport/comfort compass reads, you can choose any number of generations, which often overlap to some degree. (i.e. 964/993 or 996/997)
3. There are things about almost every car built that someone won't like. Porsche builds cars for a well honed target audience, and that target audience does not dramatically shift from one generation to the next, hence why the "evolution" theory has been so effective.
Now, whether the 991 is too compromised for YOU is a personal choice, but the 991 is a 911, will always be a 911, and will likely come to be fondly remembered for many years, just like almost all 911s.
1. Since 1964, the 911 has become bigger, more comfortable, more refined, and more technologically advanced in each generation, while still retaining certain aspects of the original DNA.
2. The porsche 911 has always been a compromise. The 991 is no different. Based upon which way your particular sport/comfort compass reads, you can choose any number of generations, which often overlap to some degree. (i.e. 964/993 or 996/997)
3. There are things about almost every car built that someone won't like. Porsche builds cars for a well honed target audience, and that target audience does not dramatically shift from one generation to the next, hence why the "evolution" theory has been so effective.
Now, whether the 991 is too compromised for YOU is a personal choice, but the 991 is a 911, will always be a 911, and will likely come to be fondly remembered for many years, just like almost all 911s.
06-29-2012, 08:07 PM
#175
Race Director
If your point is that one can always expect lower sales the year before a new model and therefore an uptick the following year, keep in mind that the extremely popular 997 GTS was being sold in early 2011. In general, however, it may have some validity.
In any event, I have no skin in this discussion. Given the implications based on anecdotal evidence that the 991 isn't selling well, I just thought the actual numbers might be of interest.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 06-30-2012 at 02:40 AM. Reason: sp
06-29-2012, 11:07 PM
#176
Rennlist Member
You know what they say about opinions...
Can't we all just get along?
Can't we all just get along?
06-29-2012, 11:21 PM
#177
This thread kind of reminds me of Cayman/Boxster owners trying to convince the world that the 911 is obsolete/garbage. These reactions are very typical of when a new model comes out. Coming from a 997.2, I can tell you that the 991 is better than a 997 in every way by a SMALL margin. Do I miss my 997? Yup. But do I think the 991 is a step up? Yup. In a perfect world, I would own both!!
06-30-2012, 03:29 AM
#178
Nordschleife Master
This thread kind of reminds me of Cayman/Boxster owners trying to convince the world that the 911 is obsolete/garbage. These reactions are very typical of when a new model comes out. Coming from a 997.2, I can tell you that the 991 is better than a 997 in every way by a SMALL margin. Do I miss my 997? Yup. But do I think the 991 is a step up? Yup. In a perfect world, I would own both!!
06-30-2012, 06:14 AM
#179
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Personally, I too am dubious of the 991 when thinking about details like its panamera console/ button handbrake / electric steering / larger dimensions / Aston-martin-wanabee rear lights / "con-sealed" engine bay / bulbous headlamps etc...
But history shows that perceptions change with time.
I remember being extremely critical of the 996 when it came out. "No longer a true 911" was what mostly came to my mind at the time. Yet a few years later, I was the happy owner of a 996 that I grew to love and cherish. A car that was every bit as much of a 911 as any and all previous versions of the 911.
And the fact is that Porsche built and sold a heck of a lot more 996's than any other 911 that came before that.
When the 997 came out, it was an even bigger hit, IMHO in part due to Porsche's ability to cash-in on the "aircooled nostalgia" having been able to create what basically was an improved 996, with a more retro-911 styling (especially up front). That may well be the same kind of card Porsche will play when they launch the nextgen 911.
Personally, I took the decision to purchase a new 997.2 S last November, one of the last 997 builds, at a time when I knew I could wait a few months and get a 991. My decision was mostly based on my perception that last-generation builds are more tested and potentially more reliable cars than first-generation builds. And since I always buy my cars outright and keep them for a few years, these things are important to me. Needless to say, I love and thoroughly enjoy driving my 997, and don't foresee changing it anytime soon for a 991. But like I said earlier, perceptions change with time. Thus I don't discard a day in the future when I might get a 991, at a time I'll be less dubious about all the new details introduced with the 991, which I mentioned on my 1st paragraph above...
To those out there insisting that somehow the 991 is becoming a sales flop...etc... I'd recommend reading up on some of the news coming from Porsche itself on the increased demand for the new 911 and their actions being taken to increase production capacity at Zuffenhausen.
The following excerpt from Reuters news agency I read a few days ago might shed some light:
" BERLIN (Reuters) - Facing a drawn out battle to complete their long-planned integration, Volkswagen and Porsche will forge ahead with tighter manufacturing links that could deliver hundreds of millions of euros in annual savings.
Unresolved tax and legal issues since the companies pledged to merge almost three years ago shifted the focus to operational integration.
Porsche will start building its revamped Boxster roadster at a VW factory in Osnabrueck, Germany, in September and add a new version of the hardtop Cayman to the plant next year - the first Porsche models to be fully assembled at VW.
Porsche started sending engineers to Osnabrueck from its traditional Zuffenhausen base in Stuttgart last autumn to train staff at the mass-market manufacturer on how to assemble luxury vehicles.
The sports-car maker is widely known for lean production techniques that companies including aviation group Deutsche Lufthansa and steelmaker ThyssenKrupp seek to emulate.
Production of Porsche models at the Osnabrueck facility will be restricted to vehicles that cannot be made at the Zuffenhausen plant for capacity reasons.
Surging demand for the overhauled 911, which shares an assembly line with the Boxster and Cayman, is causing bottlenecks at Porsche's main factory, where capacity is limited to between 35,000 and 40,000 vehicles a year, Porsche sales chief Bernhard Maier told Reuters.
"We're reaching the limits of our capacity," Maier said. "We need to expand." "
But history shows that perceptions change with time.
I remember being extremely critical of the 996 when it came out. "No longer a true 911" was what mostly came to my mind at the time. Yet a few years later, I was the happy owner of a 996 that I grew to love and cherish. A car that was every bit as much of a 911 as any and all previous versions of the 911.
And the fact is that Porsche built and sold a heck of a lot more 996's than any other 911 that came before that.
When the 997 came out, it was an even bigger hit, IMHO in part due to Porsche's ability to cash-in on the "aircooled nostalgia" having been able to create what basically was an improved 996, with a more retro-911 styling (especially up front). That may well be the same kind of card Porsche will play when they launch the nextgen 911.
Personally, I took the decision to purchase a new 997.2 S last November, one of the last 997 builds, at a time when I knew I could wait a few months and get a 991. My decision was mostly based on my perception that last-generation builds are more tested and potentially more reliable cars than first-generation builds. And since I always buy my cars outright and keep them for a few years, these things are important to me. Needless to say, I love and thoroughly enjoy driving my 997, and don't foresee changing it anytime soon for a 991. But like I said earlier, perceptions change with time. Thus I don't discard a day in the future when I might get a 991, at a time I'll be less dubious about all the new details introduced with the 991, which I mentioned on my 1st paragraph above...
To those out there insisting that somehow the 991 is becoming a sales flop...etc... I'd recommend reading up on some of the news coming from Porsche itself on the increased demand for the new 911 and their actions being taken to increase production capacity at Zuffenhausen.
The following excerpt from Reuters news agency I read a few days ago might shed some light:
" BERLIN (Reuters) - Facing a drawn out battle to complete their long-planned integration, Volkswagen and Porsche will forge ahead with tighter manufacturing links that could deliver hundreds of millions of euros in annual savings.
Unresolved tax and legal issues since the companies pledged to merge almost three years ago shifted the focus to operational integration.
Porsche will start building its revamped Boxster roadster at a VW factory in Osnabrueck, Germany, in September and add a new version of the hardtop Cayman to the plant next year - the first Porsche models to be fully assembled at VW.
Porsche started sending engineers to Osnabrueck from its traditional Zuffenhausen base in Stuttgart last autumn to train staff at the mass-market manufacturer on how to assemble luxury vehicles.
The sports-car maker is widely known for lean production techniques that companies including aviation group Deutsche Lufthansa and steelmaker ThyssenKrupp seek to emulate.
Production of Porsche models at the Osnabrueck facility will be restricted to vehicles that cannot be made at the Zuffenhausen plant for capacity reasons.
Surging demand for the overhauled 911, which shares an assembly line with the Boxster and Cayman, is causing bottlenecks at Porsche's main factory, where capacity is limited to between 35,000 and 40,000 vehicles a year, Porsche sales chief Bernhard Maier told Reuters.
"We're reaching the limits of our capacity," Maier said. "We need to expand." "
06-30-2012, 07:37 AM
#180
So now what about the interior? Could we have done without the Pani look? Yes. But, it’s evolution. When it comes down to it, the interior needed an overhaul. 997 owners will eventually like the 991, I did and I didn’t need much convincing. Porsche doesn’t change their product lines frequently, hence only 7 generations of the 911 in over 60 years. I think that 911 owners have been accustomed to this - making embracing change more difficult. Its cool, the 997 is an "almost" perfect car! But, you need to make room for the next generation.
Last edited by spourreza; 06-30-2012 at 12:52 PM.