Riz

I will take the Panamera coupe - at least it is not trying to be a 911.

alexb76

Quote from what I said earlier:

perfectlap

^ this would sell like hotcakes.

new buyers of luxury can't understand the concept of expensive and small when it comes to cars.

slicky rick

the 991 is a great car. if sport is about fast then its more sporty than the outgoing version. i feel it is the natural pregression of things given the advancement of technology. the ultimate car will be more comfortable than the current best luxury car, faster than the fastest sports car now and more economical than the most economical car now. all in one package. its about being practical! another reality is change is difficult to accept. 997 owners will all find reason why the 991 is "less of a 911" but i know deep inside they would trade up given a chance. a question- if the 997 owners were given a chance to trade up to a 991 for free wouldn't you- exclude financial concerns like better resale and then you can buy another 997 - just for the car. on the other hand ask owners of 993's turbos s's - if you gave them the cahance to trade up to a 997 what would most answer?

sandwedge

What you know deep inside may apply to some 997 owners but not to this one. Any sports car I buy must combine two elements - looks and performance. If it lacks either one I'll get something different. In this case, I don't care for the looks of the 991 so I won't get it. Offer me a free trade-up to a GTS or maybe a .2 Turbo and you wouldn't have to ask twice.

allegretto

Well, I do think it good that you like the 991. I'm sure many will, seriously.

But you're way off base with some/many of us here. You equate "progress" with more electronics and nannies. Some of us are attracted to other things

Enjoy...

Spokane5150

I think you're right. I didn't drive the car but I did have a chance to sit in a Carrera S at our Porsche Banquet the other night. I noticed that the steering wheel adjusted electronically and the interior was very plush. It was also nice and roomy. The C2S reminded me of my buddy's CTS-V on the inside because it was very luxurious. The seats were plush and comfortable like a Cadillac. I didn't like the fact that you couldn't see the motor. The car is esthetically pleasing but the only thing that came to mind while looking and sitting in the car was: Wow.....the enthusiast's are really' going to rip this car apart because of all the refinements.

perfectlap

Not necessarily. A real sporsts car enthusiast isn't looking for a car that has the absolute best time sheets. He's not going cup racing with a plush GT afterall. What you may not be considering is that that engineering at this point is starting to work against the driver. The faster the car gets, the less they involve the driver. They need to mitigate driver error as much as possible with this much right out of the box power. So what you wind up with is a car that will practically drive itself to a lap time faster than the outgoing GT3. Sure that's great...engineering goal accomplished. But who said that's the same as providing a true sports car driver with the most rewarding experience? If you need to win races that's one thing but bulk of the market is not looking to do any such thing.

p.s.
When you start comparing the interior of a flagship sports coupe with my grandpa's Caddilac you've completely lost the plot.

Riz

I finally got to drive the new 991S. It was a white one with standard beige interior. The interior plastics especially in beige felt cheap, have to get full leather. I got a good run for about 20 minutes on familiar roads and corners. It feels like a car with more stability, higher limits and less indication of what those limits are. The car feels bigger that it really is on paper. Previous 911's seemed to shrink around you as you start picking up the pace, this one doesn't. The steering had very little feel although it is better than other electric assist systems. It did not feel as quick as I expected, especially below 2500 rpm. The sound seemed to come from in between the rear seats, very directional. PDK was definitely improved over the 997. It is a good daily driver for a slightly overweight man in his mid 50's and up, or a younger person who wants to show off to the M3 guys. Overall - I was underwhelmed. The salesman said I need some more time in the car and invited me to try it out again. I'll wait for the 7 speed and try again.

Ray S

This ^^

Please let me know when a new 911 was every introduced that wasn't somewhat more comfortable than the outgoing model? When one was introduced that didn't try to improve the handling and wring out a bit of the off throttle "oh ****" moment oversteer?

Did the downfall start when when Porsche added lead weights to the front fenders of 911's. Was it when they gave the 964 brutal understeer so the car would just plow off the road? Did the earth's rotation stop when the 993 got a new multilink rear suspension to help reduce off throttle oversteer and (gasp) improve ride comfort?

As a contrast is the Ferrari 458 somehow not a sports car due to the fact that it has a dramatically more comfortable interior and enhanced handling (read safer) than an F40?

It's somewhat laughable to see some here laud a car like the 997 GTS PDK (by far the most luxurious 911 ever) as the last true 911 and pronouce the 991 a sellout car when few have even driven it.

I love the older 911s. I have particularly fond memories of an old 911SC I drove for a while, but I don't see the 997 as a sellout car. They both have strengths and weaknesses. The reality is that if Porsche was still trying to sell old SC's the company would be bankrupt as the current state of the art has moved on and there just aren't enought moldy figs out there willing to spend for a car that has it's perfomance eclipsed by a run of the mill 2012 hot hatch. If you want the old school nostalgia, buy an old 911. On the other hand if you want a car that can keep up with a 458 wait for the new 991 GT3. I'll bet it's going to be pretty cool.

blake

I agree 100% Ray. For us "old school" guys, I think the best thing Porsche ever did was create the more raw "GT2 & GT3s" for the enthusiasts, allowing the turbo and NA crowd to have the most modern "old-school" Porsche race cars for the street. That was a brilliant, brilliant move.

I must say that the advent of the 996 was the biggest disappointment in my life. At that time, I had been drooling over Porsche since youth and finally had the funds to buy a new one. I really like the 997, and appreciate what they have done with the 997.2. If I were to line up Porsches over the last decade (let's pick the long nose as the starting point up through the 991), the only line that doesn't seem to fit is the 996. That's just my view...

My personal goal is to grow my stable to include more pre-1990 911s, and that list grows longer each day as I learn more about Porsche's history through Rennlist and the myriad of book options at Amazon...

So many Porsches, so little time...

-Blake

Mike in CA

Great post Ray, and I agree with you right down the line. You realize, though, that you're applying reasonableness and logic to a discussion where emotion and subjectivity reign. For example, every independent review I've read has praised the new electro-mechanical steering for it's ability to filter out the unnecessary twitches without removing any of the precision and feedback one wants in a sports car. Yet I still hear people describing the steering as numb and with little feel. Those who have been complaining about the steering ever since they heard there was going to be a change, are simply unwilling to admit they have overstated their case.

This issue won't be resolved for a long time; maybe not until the 992 comes out a few years from now. Then, everyone will lament how the 991 was the last real Porsche, just as they have done every time Porsche has made another step in the progression, from replacing the 356 with the 911 to the current day.

perfectlap

I don't understand this claim. Who says selling "old SC's" and selling Panameras/Cayennes are mutually exclusive endeavors? Porsche will sell more of the latter in the years to come (if they aren't already) no matter how much they decide to bloat the proportions and interior of the Carrera or if they instead decided to go back to a smaller, rawer, more connected coupe. Either way those new sedan and SUV models will be flying off the lots both here and abroad. Porsche could easily become the most profitable company in the world selling only Cayennes and Panameras. Clearly they have succeeded in laying down the groundwork towards shifting into a global luxury brand. Let's not pretend Porsche will live and die by the Carrera anymore.

They can EASILY afford to give enthusiasts a true sports coupe and simply introduce a new comfy GT for people who don't know who Steve McQueen was or where the N-ring is but have plenty of cash to burn. They are making an unecessary compromise for new buyers that aren't even asking for such.

p.s.
This is more comfortable and safer than an F40 but NO ONE would claim this isn't a sports car interior.

Abby Normal

Porsche should have just stuck with the 550A. That's the only real Porsche..

alexb76

I agree with you 100%.

I was just in Palo Alto two weeks ago, and test drove the McLaren MPC-42 or whatever it's called! It's a $250K car, ofcourse, it has electronics all over the place, yup... BUT, it IS a sportscar, in any shape or form... from the amazing interior, to the view of the engine, to the side intakes, to how it sounds, and how it feels (not to mention HOW FAST!). It is a car that kids will put the poster up, would look at the glass engine cover and drool, and is unmistakably a sports car from any angle. F458 is exactly the same.

991 COULD have been *similar* (ofcourse not as exotic due to costs), simpler interior, less intrusive electronics, actually BE PROUD of the flat-6 engine and let people enjoy how it's manufactured/looks like instead of hiding it under ugly fans, etc... while still a 911 unmistakenly, it just looks like A LOT MORE like Jaguar, Aston, BMW, Audi, Maeserati, than a Ferrari. Even latest Maeserati interiors look more sporty than 991 and that is classified as GT!