997 cylinder damage from incorrect spark plugs installed in Raby engine - what to do?
#61
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So the Thread should read: "Changed plugs, accidentily may have had broken shot glass shards fall into spark plug holes causing scoring"
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Last edited by groovzilla; 07-18-2024 at 06:03 PM.
#62
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This post is chock full o' things that scare the bejeezus out of me: bore scoring, egregious oil consumption, and self-inflicted maintenance SNAFUs. HOWEVER, I am incredibly impressed by and grateful for:
1. The absolutely generous and steady-handed input from @Charles Navarro
and
2. This community that genuinely aims to help 997 owners (somewhat inexperienced, occasionally careless and perpetually paranoid) like me with their four wheeled babies.
I sincerely wish the OP a quick and easy resolution to his current issues with no further headaches down the road. And thanks, again, to Charles and the seasoned vets like @ZuffenZeus for figuring this out.
1. The absolutely generous and steady-handed input from @Charles Navarro
and
2. This community that genuinely aims to help 997 owners (somewhat inexperienced, occasionally careless and perpetually paranoid) like me with their four wheeled babies.
I sincerely wish the OP a quick and easy resolution to his current issues with no further headaches down the road. And thanks, again, to Charles and the seasoned vets like @ZuffenZeus for figuring this out.
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#63
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Groovezilla is a much nicer guy than his photo seems.
#65
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In the OP's defense when I first responded to this thread it had a different title. In one of the first few posts the OP was told to change it to "Jake Raby rebuild has Bore Scoring".
That being said it would have been helpful to have all the facts. But my vote would be to not delete this thread. It still contains good information like the deglazing procedure and sometimes I come back to search these threads for reputable information from reliable sources.
This thread is a reminder that it's smart to buy parts only from a reputable source and always using your VIN to be sure you don't get the wrong part. I personally also would have used an OE AOS from a Porsche dealer (many sell online at cost + fixed margin) not using a kit from Pelican. Even OE AOSs have failed out of the box but on a part so important it's still your best bet. Aftermarket AOSs should be avoided. Even if the Pelican one was "OE" I wouldn't be surprised if it's from WorldPac, etc.....
That being said it would have been helpful to have all the facts. But my vote would be to not delete this thread. It still contains good information like the deglazing procedure and sometimes I come back to search these threads for reputable information from reliable sources.
This thread is a reminder that it's smart to buy parts only from a reputable source and always using your VIN to be sure you don't get the wrong part. I personally also would have used an OE AOS from a Porsche dealer (many sell online at cost + fixed margin) not using a kit from Pelican. Even OE AOSs have failed out of the box but on a part so important it's still your best bet. Aftermarket AOSs should be avoided. Even if the Pelican one was "OE" I wouldn't be surprised if it's from WorldPac, etc.....
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#67
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Your other big concern was oil consumption. All flat 6 engines either from the factory or rebuilt, will consume some oil, but if you have a failing AOS and scored cylinders, oil consumption will increase. The clearances from the FOD gouging allow more oil past the rings. And a failing AOS causes the engine to ingest oil which could eventually lead to hydrolock if not replaced. Countless threads on the subject, especially with tracked M9X based Carreras, Boxsters, and Caymans.
And yes, agree. We own a few investment properties and recently moved out of one of them and we're renting a place while we decide where we want to live. Wife found a house she liked and selling the car was just adding to the down payment. No matter how you slice it, the sale of the car was a nice addition to the house fund. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...11-carrera-41/
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If you sell it as-is, does it mean the car is not ok to drive and perform in spite of the circumstances? IMHO... no. This car could go years without any problem, but coming on a public forum to gain leverage with a title of "Jake Raby rebuild suffers bore scoring - options and help" without being fully upfront with us about YOUR mistake is just plain wrong. The original thread title and your first post implies that FSI engines are no better than the factory when it comes to cylinder bore scoring. I'm glad I was able to see through this "WRECK" (just for you Tom!) of a thread title. That's a hard pill to swallow and I'm sure some of the tender hearted on this forum will find my comments a little harsh. Like me, or hate me. I don't really care. What I do care about is two men and their companies that have spent the better part of 25+ years provided solutions to these engines.
My best advice is get rid of the car and pour your energy and financial resources into your wife and family.
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Last edited by ZuffenZeus; 07-19-2024 at 02:45 PM.
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#69
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Hoping to learn, as I have a new to me 997.2. What function does the AOS perform (beyond the name), what are symptoms of a failing one, and is it a replacement item based on mileage? Am a little concerned about the oil consumption I am seeing on mine but have only 1500mi to assess. Thanks!
#70
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As you guys can see, I decided to change the thread title. Not fair to Jake or Charles to have "bore scoring" associated to one of their engine builds when it had nothing to do with the engine they built or quality of their work or processes.
It is a Raby and LN built engine, so I left that reference in the title but removed the mention of scoring. I've also adjusted it one more time so it's clear the incorrect plugs were not installed by FSI as part of the build.
It is a Raby and LN built engine, so I left that reference in the title but removed the mention of scoring. I've also adjusted it one more time so it's clear the incorrect plugs were not installed by FSI as part of the build.
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#71
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Hoping to learn, as I have a new to me 997.2. What function does the AOS perform (beyond the name), what are symptoms of a failing one, and is it a replacement item based on mileage? Am a little concerned about the oil consumption I am seeing on mine but have only 1500mi to assess. Thanks!
you can read more here:
https://lnengineering.com/products/aos.html?mode=list
#72
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it’s a vacuum oil separator, so it also serves the primary function of regulating the crankcase vacuum. This is why it can be tested easily with a manometer.
you can read more here:
https://lnengineering.com/products/aos.html?mode=list
you can read more here:
https://lnengineering.com/products/aos.html?mode=list
#74
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Obviously, you had a failing AOS that was verified by a reputable Porsche shop. I assume either Mack Motorwerks or Velocity Motorwerks. You then carried out the work by yourself instead of paying the shop. (correct me if I'm wrong). Along with replacing the AOS, water pump, and thermostat, you also replaced all 6 spark plugs that turned out to be the wrong parts. As you mentioned in the other thread, they were longer which meant they protruded into the combustion chamber thus coming in contact with the pistons. You confirmed this by stated that the 3 spark plugs on bank#2 all had broken electrodes along the bore scope photographs in this thread. You never pointed that out in this thread which wasted our time. ![banghead](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/banghead.gif)
Your other big concern was oil consumption. All flat 6 engines either from the factory or rebuilt, will consume some oil, but if you have a failing AOS and scored cylinders, oil consumption will increase. The clearances from the FOD gouging allow more oil past the rings. And a failing AOS causes the engine to ingest oil which could eventually lead to hydrolock if not replaced. Countless threads on the subject, especially with tracked M9X based Carreras, Boxsters, and Caymans.
That was another mistake. At this point, it's all speculation based on the facts. What we do know is that the AOS was failing and confirmed by the Porsche shop. You handled the job yourself and botched the spark plug install. As a result, FOD broke off inside the cylinders and you drove the car until the engine exhibited a CEL for misfires. You replaced the plugs with the correct ones, but could have NOT gotten all the FOD out of the cylinders. You continued to drive the car for another 6 months with possible FOD banging around inside the cylinders. As a result, the current shop has confirmed severe gouging as a result as shown in the bore scope images. That's what we know.
Listen to your wife. She seems very smart!
WP0AA29965S716394
As others have mentioned, get the car serviced and checked out in light of the cylinder situation. Provide the PPI and Dyno results and be upfront with the buyer about your mistake if you chose to sell it as-is. IMHO, to repair the cylinder damage means the engine will have to be rebuilt again and that would cost as much as you paid for the car. Not smart given you current property investment situation. I'm sure your wife is thrilled to hear the news.
![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
If you sell it as-is, does it mean the car is not ok to drive and perform in spite of the circumstances? IMHO... no. This car could go years without any problem, but coming on a public forum to gain leverage with a title of "Jake Raby rebuild suffers bore scoring - options and help" without being fully upfront with us about YOUR mistake is just plain wrong. The original thread title and your first post implies that FSI engines are no better than the factory when it comes to cylinder bore scoring. I'm glad I was able to see through this "WRECK" (just for you Tom!) of a thread title. That's a hard pill to swallow and I'm sure some of the tender hearted on this forum will find my comments a little harsh. Like me, or hate me. I don't really care. What I do care about is two men and their companies that have spent the better part of 25+ years provided solutions to these engines.
My best advice is get rid of the car and pour your energy and financial resources into your wife and family.![thumbup](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/thumbup.gif)
![banghead](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/banghead.gif)
Your other big concern was oil consumption. All flat 6 engines either from the factory or rebuilt, will consume some oil, but if you have a failing AOS and scored cylinders, oil consumption will increase. The clearances from the FOD gouging allow more oil past the rings. And a failing AOS causes the engine to ingest oil which could eventually lead to hydrolock if not replaced. Countless threads on the subject, especially with tracked M9X based Carreras, Boxsters, and Caymans.
That was another mistake. At this point, it's all speculation based on the facts. What we do know is that the AOS was failing and confirmed by the Porsche shop. You handled the job yourself and botched the spark plug install. As a result, FOD broke off inside the cylinders and you drove the car until the engine exhibited a CEL for misfires. You replaced the plugs with the correct ones, but could have NOT gotten all the FOD out of the cylinders. You continued to drive the car for another 6 months with possible FOD banging around inside the cylinders. As a result, the current shop has confirmed severe gouging as a result as shown in the bore scope images. That's what we know.
Listen to your wife. She seems very smart!
WP0AA29965S716394
As others have mentioned, get the car serviced and checked out in light of the cylinder situation. Provide the PPI and Dyno results and be upfront with the buyer about your mistake if you chose to sell it as-is. IMHO, to repair the cylinder damage means the engine will have to be rebuilt again and that would cost as much as you paid for the car. Not smart given you current property investment situation. I'm sure your wife is thrilled to hear the news.
![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
If you sell it as-is, does it mean the car is not ok to drive and perform in spite of the circumstances? IMHO... no. This car could go years without any problem, but coming on a public forum to gain leverage with a title of "Jake Raby rebuild suffers bore scoring - options and help" without being fully upfront with us about YOUR mistake is just plain wrong. The original thread title and your first post implies that FSI engines are no better than the factory when it comes to cylinder bore scoring. I'm glad I was able to see through this "WRECK" (just for you Tom!) of a thread title. That's a hard pill to swallow and I'm sure some of the tender hearted on this forum will find my comments a little harsh. Like me, or hate me. I don't really care. What I do care about is two men and their companies that have spent the better part of 25+ years provided solutions to these engines.
My best advice is get rid of the car and pour your energy and financial resources into your wife and family.
![thumbup](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/thumbup.gif)
![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
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#75
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As someone that had an FSI engine fail at 1800 miles after I sold it to a fellow rennlister due to not replacing the thermostat (his gold cert Porsche race mechanic's diagnosis when replacing it prior to failure), and then was blatantly lied to (may post the video one day), forced to eat a sh*t sandwich ($15k and promise to never post or "shove it up your @ss"), I can say I have no disillusionments. And while revenge is not worth my time, my experience did provide a decent amount of motivation for bringing Hartech to the US in order to offer our community another option as my "retirement project".
While there does appear to be one significant score mark as pointed out in picture #4, I would be fairly confident in stating that this engine does not have "bore scoring". Nickasil is roughly twice as hard as steel liners and so most marks we see on them during teardown are superficial. Comparing the carbon build up on this piston to the other 6 and seeing that it is fairly consistent across the board would give me even greater confidence to make that statement.
The high level of oil consumption is most likely going to be from the loose tolerances of the JE pistons. This has been the primary issue with all three of the engines similar to this one that we have been asked to upgrade to a closed deck design and rebuild.
Anyway, my recommendation is to find the highest end dyno shop in your area, preferably one with a "hub dyno" if you can, and have three pulls done. Barring any other issues, this should allow you to show a prospective buyer that it is still a good, strong engine. Then you can discount it appropriately for the oil usage and proceed forward with your housing plans.
While there does appear to be one significant score mark as pointed out in picture #4, I would be fairly confident in stating that this engine does not have "bore scoring". Nickasil is roughly twice as hard as steel liners and so most marks we see on them during teardown are superficial. Comparing the carbon build up on this piston to the other 6 and seeing that it is fairly consistent across the board would give me even greater confidence to make that statement.
The high level of oil consumption is most likely going to be from the loose tolerances of the JE pistons. This has been the primary issue with all three of the engines similar to this one that we have been asked to upgrade to a closed deck design and rebuild.
Anyway, my recommendation is to find the highest end dyno shop in your area, preferably one with a "hub dyno" if you can, and have three pulls done. Barring any other issues, this should allow you to show a prospective buyer that it is still a good, strong engine. Then you can discount it appropriately for the oil usage and proceed forward with your housing plans.