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@tbobby910 Could you please explain in detail what was serviced at Firehouse Auto Spa, Velocity Motorwerks, and then Mack MotorWerks in the past three years?
Hi, yes, I was aware. The first "accident" was documented somewhat in the BaT listing. Reportedly a broken windshield with insurance claim. I was comfortable with the explanation. The second occurred under the owner I bought it from and he sent pictures and it was a relative love tap. He replaced the bumper cover and used the extra money to buy the taillights. Both seemed like non-events on a 19 year old car. Of course, buyer beware but I was satisfied with both explanations.
Regarding the maintenance listed:
Firehouse autospa: Upon delivery, I immediately had a full paint correction completed and PPF added. Previous sports car experiences told me this was a necessity.
Velocity motorworks: I had the AOS checked. They informed me of the failure and I completed the work myself.
Mack motorwerks 2x: March 2024: vacuum valve in the fuel/air system was replaced. Car started running rough and I was near the shop and dropped it off immediately. I don't recall the exact name of the valve. Most recent was the PPI for the prospective buyer.
no smoke and when I did the AOS change I did not find oil on back side of throttle body. I will get smoke if I start the engine, move the car, shutdown. Then when I restart it will smoke but otherwise none. This seems normal for most flat 6 engines (I’m familiar with piston aircraft).
The factory pistons have pinned second rings to keep the end gap located at the top of the cylinder. This option is not available with any aftermarket pistons, even when ordering from Mahle Motorsport.
With aftermarket pistons (and every other piston without pinned or tabbed rings), they will rotate. On a horizontally opposed engine, the gaps can and will at times line up towards the bottom of the bore, at which time oil can get past the rings, letting out that tell-tale puff that most horizontally opposed engines will let out.
We have observed for years that if you start the car up as to move it a short distance without driving the car to full operating temperature that engines with aftermarket pistons regardless of brand or ring manufacturer will smoke momentarily when restarted. This is normal and expected as you mentioned.
Hi, yes, I was aware. The first "accident" was documented somewhat in the BaT listing. Reportedly a broken windshield with insurance claim. I was comfortable with the explanation. The second occurred under the owner I bought it from and he sent pictures and it was a relative love tap. He replaced the bumper cover and used the extra money to buy the taillights. Both seemed like non-events on a 19 year old car. Of course, buyer beware but I was satisfied with both explanations.
Regarding the maintenance listed:
Firehouse autospa: Upon delivery, I immediately had a full paint correction completed and PPF added. Previous sports car experiences told me this was a necessity.
Velocity motorworks: I had the AOS checked. They informed me of the failure and I completed the work myself.
Mack motorwerks 2x: March 2024: vacuum valve in the fuel/air system was replaced. Car started running rough and I was near the shop and dropped it off immediately. I don't recall the exact name of the valve. Most recent was the PPI for the prospective buyer.
When the AOS was replaced, were the vent tubes also replaced?
What brand of AOS was used?
Has the engine been smoke tested to check for vacuum leaks?
Jake is out this week. His daughter has been in and out of the hospital. We did see the ticket, but Jake left it assigned to him indicating he was planning on responding to it.
Being that the engine was originally built in 2013, a lot can happen in that amount of time. I know Jake will have some questions for you, but I'll interject here to ask that you update the ticket you created on the FSI system and let Jake know if there have been any changes made to the vehicle since the work was originally completed (like the addition of a cold air intake or washable filter was used) along with the service history and any used oil analysis results you might have. I'm sure he will have more questions.
I'm also sure Jake will want to know what shop the car is at so he can interface with them.
Hi Charles, I appreciate the reply. Just to be clear, I wasn't intending to "call out" Raby, flat 6, or LN etc in titling this post. It was recommended to change the title to get a broader reach to get help with my car. This car is everything a Porsche should be and I planned to keep it for a very long time. I will update the ticket. To confirm, no changes have been made to the car since I purchased and I followed the rec maintenance schedule set forth by Flat 6. I did always think the car ran rich judging by exhaust smell but I wasn't aware of fuel trim issues in my research or presumed it to be fine because there are a lot of posts of these cars smelling different when they run.
Bumper has always been clean. Car has Fabspeed headers back with x pipe and 200 cell cats.
That's good to know. Engines with bore scoring will have oil residue on the rear bumper cover. Likewise, if the oil control rings or 2nd piston rings are compromised, leading to high oil consumption, this too would result in an oily and sooty rear bumper cover. This leads me to believe there is nothing seriously wrong with the engine and that the above corrective action procedure should remedy the oil consumption issues as long as all other issues are resolved prior to carrying out that procedure.
You've asked for our advice and opinions. Here we go!
First of all, did you know that it had been wrecked twice? The first on 1/17/2011 and the second on 4/11/2020 about 11 months before you bought the vehicle? (I ran the VIN)
Wrecked? That is a strong word. I guess the 997.2 CS-M I bought from my brother using your terminology was also "wrecked" twice. Twice at the same time. Stopped at a light and "gently" pushed into the car in front of him. I say "gently" because he was in the process of letting up on the clutch and when hit pushed the clutch. damage to the front bumper is a small hole still there. damage to the rear was some braces. The body wasn't touched. But since it was "wrecked' I am now wondering if I might as well just junk it, or turn it into a LeMons car.
The fellow I bought my 968 from owes me $$ under your terminology. His kids motorcycle fell on the quarter panel. Sheez, that's two wrecks I bought in a year. No, make that 3. The Boxster I bought was also in a wreck. Front end "wreck" according to the carfax. What I cant figure out based on your definition is when I took off the bumper to replace the radiators the manufacture code was the same as the rest of the car. Maybe I'll attach a picture of the front bumper and you can tell us all what the "wreck" was. I think it is obvious, but what do I know - Carfax is always right. Probably not so this stays on topic - a motor.
Hi Charles, I appreciate the reply. Just to be clear, I wasn't intending to "call out" Raby, flat 6, or LN etc in titling this post. It was recommended to change the title to get a broader reach to get help with my car. This car is everything a Porsche should be and I planned to keep it for a very long time. I will update the ticket. To confirm, no changes have been made to the car since I purchased and I followed the rec maintenance schedule set forth by Flat 6. I did always think the car ran rich judging by exhaust smell but I wasn't aware of fuel trim issues in my research or presumed it to be fine because there are a lot of posts of these cars smelling different when they run.
No problem. For sure the rich running situation needs to be addressed to prevent any further possible damage to the engine.
As someone that had an FSI engine fail at 1800 miles after I sold it to a fellow rennlister due to not replacing the thermostat (his gold cert Porsche race mechanic's diagnosis when replacing it prior to failure), and then was blatantly lied to (may post the video one day), forced to eat a sh*t sandwich ($15k and promise to never post or "shove it up your @ss"), I can say I have no disillusionments. And while revenge is not worth my time, my experience did provide a decent amount of motivation for bringing Hartech to the US in order to offer our community another option as my "retirement project".
While there does appear to be one significant score mark as pointed out in picture #4, I would be fairly confident in stating that this engine does not have "bore scoring". Nickasil is roughly twice as hard as steel liners and so most marks we see on them during teardown are superficial. Comparing the carbon build up on this piston to the other 6 and seeing that it is fairly consistent across the board would give me even greater confidence to make that statement.
The high level of oil consumption is most likely going to be from the loose tolerances of the JE pistons. This has been the primary issue with all three of the engines similar to this one that we have been asked to upgrade to a closed deck design and rebuild.
Anyway, my recommendation is to find the highest end dyno shop in your area, preferably one with a "hub dyno" if you can, and have three pulls done. Barring any other issues, this should allow you to show a prospective buyer that it is still a good, strong engine. Then you can discount it appropriately for the oil usage and proceed forward with your housing plans.
Thanks for the advice and information. I think it will be difficult to find a buyer with these outstanding questions unless it's priced as a roller.
Wrecked? That is a strong word. I guess the 997.2 CS-M I bought from my brother using your terminology was also "wrecked" twice. Twice at the same time. Stopped at a light and "gently" pushed into the car in front of him. I say "gently" because he was in the process of letting up on the clutch and when hit pushed the clutch. damage to the front bumper is a small hole still there. damage to the rear was some braces. The body wasn't touched. But since it was "wrecked' I am now wondering if I might as well just junk it, or turn it into a LeMons car.
The fellow I bought my 968 from owes me $$ under your terminology. His kids motorcycle fell on the quarter panel. Sheez, that's two wrecks I bought in a year. No, make that 3. The Boxster I bought was also in a wreck. Front end "wreck" according to the carfax. What I cant figure out based on your definition is when I took off the bumper to replace the radiators the manufacture code was the same as the rest of the car. Maybe I'll attach a picture of the front bumper and you can tell us all what the "wreck" was. I think it is obvious, but what do I know - Carfax is always right. Probably not so this stays on topic - a motor.
Thanks for the moral support. I had to bite my tongue and reply.
Back in 2013, injector replacements were not mandated nor done as standard operating procedure. This is something that has come to light in the years since. Tony Callas has gone as far as to recommend replacing injectors basically just like the AOS and water pump.
This involves doing double doses of Injector Defender at every fill up for a 1000-2000 miles coupled with using the Cummins spec Valvoline Restore oil with a 500-1000 mile service interval (you can run longer but the oil breaks down quick and oil consumption will then trend upwards again). You'll need to drive the car spiritedly and avoid steady state operation. Lots of runs to 5-6k rpm followed by engine braking should be done. Oil or coolant temp should not exceed 210F while doing this and you should try to do as many heat cycles as possible between these "break-in" runs.
After about 3,000 miles on the Valvoline Restore, we would then recommend switching to our 607-7177 oil with a 1500-2000 mile service interval. This should help reduce the oil consumption significantly as long as there wasn't any permanent damage to the piston rings from cylinder wash down.
If you can't get your hands on Valvoline Restore, there are other oils you can use, but it will make this process take longer. We have used this same process for engines that were accidentally broken in on synthetic or switched to synthetic too soon. By no means should a break-in oil be put into the engine.
However everything must be correct with the engine and fuel system, otherwise the above procedure won't have any benefit and the problem will likely continue to get worse.
Thanks for the this info. I will wait for further analysis and planning with the guidance of Jake to develop a plan of action so I can take the appropriate steps in the right order. I do think the engine oil temp has trended higher recently. I think it used to run just over 200 and now will hit 225 during normal driving and climb towards 250 if I downshift and pass on the highway. I haven't been able to figure out a cause.
Jake is out this week. His daughter has been in and out of the hospital. We did see the ticket, but Jake left it assigned to him indicating he was planning on responding to it.
Being that the engine was originally built in 2013, a lot can happen in that amount of time. I know Jake will have some questions for you, but I'll interject here to ask that you update the ticket you created on the FSI system and let Jake know if there have been any changes made to the vehicle since the work was originally completed (like the addition of a cold air intake or washable filter was used) along with the service history and any used oil analysis results you might have. I'm sure he will have more questions.
I'm also sure Jake will want to know what shop the car is at so he can interface with them.
I'm sorry to hear that. I am seeing the costs involved to get the car to Atlanta Speedwerks since that is a shop Jake has recommended in the past. I've engaged them and they confirmed they have the experience but think it's bore scoring. I just want to get the parts aligned in a path to fixing, whether it's injectors followed by fuel treatment and reinspection or engine teardown.
Hi, yes, I was aware. The first "accident" was documented somewhat in the BaT listing. Reportedly a broken windshield with insurance claim. I was comfortable with the explanation. The second occurred under the owner I bought it from and he sent pictures and it was a relative love tap. He replaced the bumper cover and used the extra money to buy the taillights. Both seemed like non-events on a 19 year old car. Of course, buyer beware but I was satisfied with both explanations.
Regarding the maintenance listed:
Firehouse autospa: Upon delivery, I immediately had a full paint correction completed and PPF added. Previous sports car experiences told me this was a necessity.
Velocity motorworks: I had the AOS checked. They informed me of the failure and I completed the work myself.
Mack motorwerks 2x: March 2024: vacuum valve in the fuel/air system was replaced. Car started running rough and I was near the shop and dropped it off immediately. I don't recall the exact name of the valve. Most recent was the PPI for the prospective buyer.
IMHO, anytime a Porsche 911 is involved in a rear collision, even if it's considered "minor" by the reporting authority and CarFax, bad things can mechanically occur and even go unnoticed for many years. But we don't know.
What we do know is that in 2011, the 3rd owner was involved in an accident in 2011 at around 35-39,000 miles and then sold the car in 2012 at 43,965 miles. The 4th owner drove the car for about a year, then began the process of having FSI install the IMS Solution, AOS, and RMS in 2013 and then had FSI rebuild the engine to a Stage 1 3.8L Street Performer 2015. Since that time, the car has added about 45,000 miles in 11 years and apparently has been service 10 times by a handfull of shops including Porsche in Rockville MD.
In my opinion, among the many hands that was on this car since FSI did their work, it appears that someone introduced FOD into the combustion chamber which is now showing it's *** at 87,000 miles with the most recent PPI. Unfortunately, you @tbobby910 didn't conduct a PPI with a bore scope inspection when you purchased the car and so we don't know if the damage happened prior to your ownership. Hindsight is 20/20, and I'm sure you'd agree, you should have had a PPI to avoid this new revelation. At this point, the can of worms is open. I would imagine the engine will now need to be rebuild again OR you can just drive it as-is or sell as-is noting the cylinder condition. But do the right thing and offer full disclosure to the next buyer.
Thanks for the moral support. I had to bite my tongue and reply.
Originally Posted by Tom R.
Wrecked? That is a strong word.
Didn't mean to touch a nerve. The word "wrecked" is used when a car comes in contact with another motor vehicle. I know it's not what we like to hear, but from a legal perspective, it's used. (I've recently been down this road with lawyers when my daughter caused an accident.) When it doesn't involve another motor vehicle, the word "collision" is preferably used.
Carfax likes to appease people that are sensitive to semantics especially when selling a car. (I've personally had a nice conversion with them about the topic concerning one of my past Porsches.) They prefer to say "accident" because they feel it's less harsh. Therefore... How about this instead... it was in an "accident" with another motor vehicle that was deemed minor in nature. No airbags deployed. Happy now?
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