Petza914

Damn, what shop did that original build that only lasted 14k miles? Steel sleeves?

bgoetz

You can get a stage 2 track motor from Flat 6 for $27k with about everything that needs replaced replaced!!

To the OP as someone who was just in this position I opted to wait the wait and am a September 2022 FSI build. The process, the product, and reputation just made it hard to go any other route. Try finding a unhappy FSI customer, I literally couldn’t find one complaint, which is rare in today’s world. IMO get an early 2023 slot, you won’t really be that far behind me after all my driving season is over in November. I am betting you can keep driving until then, just keep up on the oil and use the time to save $.

JC997

I agree you can get a nicely built engine from Flat 6 for $27K, but does that include the cost of shipping the car to them and shipping it back. Are they also replacing the water pump, clutch, expansion tank, replacing hoses? My point is the cost more is more that just the rebuilt engine.

bgoetz

It does not include shipping. It does include water pump, AOS, clutch, and pretty much anything else that would likely need replaced except the expansion tank. Additionally it includes the basic tuning needed to run the stage 2 4.0 (you can buy advanced tuning). I am shipping my engine to them, not the car, so I will evaluate hoses and the expansion tank when I drop the motor.

JC997

That is a very good price point from a reputable builder. Bgoetz - wishing you the best of luck and miles of enjoyment in your stage 2 4.0.

bgoetz

Thanks! I envy your ability to tear down an engine and rebuild on your own! I am limited at dropping the motor and reinstalling in terms of know how. FSI certainly isn’t cheap, but it is a pretty good value when you consider their reputation and what you get. I have a thread documenting the process

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...l#post17610441

cdk4219

Sounds like a precise, quality machine with Porsche’s highest standards. Mosquito fogger territory.

PV997

Jake is obviously a stand-up guy, a true craftsman, and the best at what he does. In addition, he spends a lot of time on these boards graciously sharing his knowledge for free (actually he pays to do it since he’s a sponsor) which we all appreciate. So none of this is meant as being negative towards him or his product, but simply some objective observations.

A Flat Six rebuild is not a good value from a purely dollar and cents perspective. 911’s aren’t exactly uncommon so there’s really no good justification for a “spare no expense” mentality when it comes to repairing them. On top of that, one will be lucky to get out Flat Six’s door for under $30k and that expense will never be recouped. Yes, a Flat Six engine will make a car more valuable at resale, but not to the extent that it comes anywhere close to covering the sunk cost.

So if one is buying from Flat Six it should be for other reasons, namely that you place a high value on owning a truly magnificent hand-crafted machine. I liken it to buying a work of art that speaks to you. From a purely rationale perspective it doesn’t make any sense, but at a more-based emotional level it does. However, that work of art may do nothing for the guy down the street or even one’s own family. It’s highly personal. I wouldn’t buy an FSI engine myself as I don’t think the cost is warranted, but understand why others do. (But I’d sure like to know how they get away with justifying it to the wife as that info may come in handy.) Like I said, it’s highly personal.

Yet every time someone’s engine blows up there’s a clamor on these boards for the unfortunate individual to go all out and join the Flat Six club. I don’t know qwertyqwerty but he only has 17 posts since January, so he’s not part of the obsessive-compulsive pack that frequent these boards (of which I include myself as a proud member). He’s told us next to nothing about his situation other than his car probably has bore-scoring. There is no way any of us can provide good advice with such scant information.

So depending on his situation, the answer is somewhere from selling it as roller to a $30k FSI engine (with junkyard engine, el-cheapo rebuild, LN engineering DYI rebuild, RND engine, and Porsche crate engine all somewhere in between).

Anyways sorry for the philosophical post but I always get the sense we are doing a disservice to the hapless folks with a few posts and a blown-up engine. IMO there’s an insinuation that an FSI engine is the only way to “do it right” which might be true for some but it’s definitely not the answer for everyone.

Optionman1

@PV997 your post doesn’t differ from what Jake himself says, you only go the FSI route if you truly love your car and plan to keep it, its clearly not an investment for quick resale. I personally put a premium on owning an engine that i know was built by one set of experienced hands, using better parts, and to a level of precision that Jake demands of anything that leaves FSI.

Petza914

I actually look at this a little differently and it's a decision tree. Branch one - the motor is done and either needs to be rebuilt or the car sold as a roller. If you decide on the rebuilt route, what does a steel sleeved rebuild replacing what should be replaced with any rebuilt motor cost while the engine is out - let's say $15-$18k. That's the number that needs to be compared to a $28k FSI rebuild that's fine with Nikkies and a number of the other things that Jake does. So it's not justifying a $$28k-$30k rebuild and if you'll get that money back on resale, it's justifying the $10k delta to go the FSI route and most of that is recoverable, at least for buyers in the know.

bgoetz

@PV997 Not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with you, as you mentioned this choice is very personal. One factor to consider when discussing value though is that an FSI stage 2 is going to get you as much or more power than a 997.1 GT3 with a much better torque curve. When I figure what I will have total in my car it is darn near 1/2 the price of a 997.1 GT3. There are really no options for our cars that will net this type of a gain short of a supercharger or LS swap.

PV997

All you guys (optionman, bgoetz, petza) are all absolutely right and we all have our own perspectives. I really do have a lot of respect for you guys and appreciate the fact we can all share our opinions here. Sounds corny but I'm excited for you @bgoetz and looking forward to reading about your experiences with the stage 2. When I wanted more power I sold my 997.1 C2S (which had performed almost flawlessly) and went with a 997.2 Turbo. That made sense for me but I get that lots of folks prefer the NA feel. I've added high flow-cats and a 3" exhaust and now looking at my tuning options as I'd like a bit more. Stock is 500 bhp, with the exhaust and tune it will be around 600. There's a small suspension twitch I'm trying to track down and have been experimenting some different alignment settings.

I came across another 996 thread from this year when a guy DIY'ed a bore-scored 2004 C4S using 4.0 liter LNE Nickies, Hoffman headwork, and replaced most parts. He's quoting $13k total costs (in 2021 dollars) but like the other 996 thread he shopped around to contain costs. It's not the best solution for everyone but it can be done if folks are motivated (and can control the urge to replace perfectly good parts).

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...e-score-5.html

I really do love the 996 forum as these guys rebuild engines on their dining room tables when the wife is at church. This guy is also replacing a Tip with a 6MT so he's pretty hard core (but obviously that's not included in the $13k).

bgoetz

Thanks! I will provide 100% non-bias feedback on my experience with FSI and the performance of the engine.

I read that thread on the rebuild, it was a great thread and very informative.

A 997.2 turbo is a great choice for more power and a great value in the 997 platform. The problem is everyone else has figure that out and now the prices are nuts and a 6MT is hard to find. I do think the Turbo 997 is a future collector, last gen MT and Mezger.

Optionman1

You had a Warranty Policy through Fidelity (glad you did with 2 PDK failures) whereas I was answering a question about how a liability insurance company such as Allstate/Liberty M/GEICO, etc would respond to a scored bore or failed transmission.

sandwedge

Understood. Sorry for the misunderstanding.