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The market dictates values, not opinions on a specialty forum. Same goes for desirability of PDK vs manual.
Exactly. Look at 993 prices. Haven't kept up with that market lately but there was a time when 993's with similar miles to my 997 GTS were priced close to or sometimes higher than my GTS. Some people said 993's were priced "unreasonably high". Who's to say that any product is priced unreasonably high as long as consumers are willing to pay what's being asked?
As for the manual vs. PDK discussion which never seems to end, I've always said that I think an enthusiast's forum such as this is a poor representation of the market as a whole. Rennlisters are heavily in favor of manuals and insist that they're worth more than PDK cars. That's true for a small segment of enthusiasts looking for one of the few manuals that were built. But is it true for the market as a whole? I don't think so. As I've said before, if manuals were preferred over PDK and also commanded a higher price than PDK by the market as a whole, why has Porsche built 911's with a fairly consistent ratio of 80% PDK and 20% manuals for 12 years now?
Exactly. Look at 993 prices. Haven't kept up with that market lately but there was a time when 993's with similar miles to my 997 GTS were priced close to or sometimes higher than my GTS. Some people said 993's were priced "unreasonably high". Who's to say that any product is priced unreasonably high as long as consumers are willing to pay what's being asked?
As for the manual vs. PDK discussion which never seems to end, I've always said that I think an enthusiast's forum such as this is a poor representation of the market as a whole. Rennlisters are heavily in favor of manuals and insist that they're worth more than PDK cars. That's true for a small segment of enthusiasts looking for one of the few manuals that were built. But is it true for the market as a whole? I don't think so. As I've said before, if manuals were preferred over PDK and also commanded a higher price than PDK by the market as a whole, why has Porsche built 911's with a fairly consistent ratio of 80% PDK and 20% manuals for 12 years now?
RE: 993 versus 997.2 Build Numbers
I may have misheard, but I believe the total NA production numbers for the NA 993 was around 70,000 and the total production numbers for the NA 9972. (Non GT3) was around 56,000.
If true that total NA 997.2 production numbers is almost 20% lower than NA 993s and most of the NA 997.2s were delivered with PDKs, the NA 997.2 Manual cars are much, much rarer than 993 NA manual cars.
The rarity, and not the overall desirability, is what is driving the 997.2 Manual market.
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I may have misheard, but I believe the total NA production numbers for the NA 993 was around 70,000 and the total production numbers for the NA 9972. (Non GT3) was around 56,000.
If true that total NA 997.2 production numbers is almost 20% lower than NA 993s and most of the NA 997.2s were delivered with PDKs, the NA 997.2 Manual cars are much, much rarer than 993 NA manual cars.
The rarity, and not the overall desirability, is what is driving the 997.2 Manual market.
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This is probably the best explanation for why 6MT 997.2 GTSs are selling, ceteris paribus, for more than PDKs. I don’t think that is a slight on PDKs as the production volumes clearly attest to its popularity in the NA market.
It’s not the intrinsic value of the 6MT, it’s the supply/demand imbalance. It actually applies to all GTSs, but seems to have a more acute impact on the 6MTs. That’s what I’ve observed so far since I started paying attention a few weeks ago. Caveat emptor is that there aren’t a lot of data points so it’s an early opinion that can certainly be proven wrong in the future. Many have suggested this market segment (997.2 GTS) is in flux and everything I’ve seen so far suggests that is also true.
Apologize if I misinterpreted what you said and that my comment seemed only directed at you. I was also addressing some of the earlier comments in this thread by others and kind of lumped everything together.
FWIW, I picked up my GTS with less than 30k miles cheap as it was mislisted as and priced as an S by a Mercedes dealership. It was listed late on a Saturday night as an S with no pictures. I ran the Vin and quickly called and held the ca early the next morning0 before the General Manager got back that morning with the car. He had driven it home.
I am also not wed to a 997.2 GTS. Will be selling mine here soon to make room for an incoming 992 Turbo. I still think the 997.2 GTS is a MUCH better car looks and feel wise than the 991s.
I would not spend $130,000 on a GTS or any 9 year old Porsche 911. I would spend a few extra dollars and get something like this 458 that happens to be certified by Ferrari for not much more.
@Doug H what an amazing story! Perseverance +some good luck always leads to amazing results!
Spot on the Ferrari point you make. These adjacent markets should impact the Porsche GTS market and act like a bit of a ceiling in normal circumstances. But given the relatively small universe of vehicles, supply/demand imbalances may rule the day and defy prima facie perceptions of “common sense.”
Seems odd to get "preview" pictures at this point. According to the CarFax, they've had the car for over a month.
Yes it does seem odd. He sent me those pictures over a week ago. It must be backed up in the shop for some reason or already sold and still up on the site.
Yes it does seem odd. He sent me those pictures over a week ago. It must be backed up in the shop for some reason or already sold and still up on the site.
that’s a nice color combo and the price is not out of the realm of reality given the low mileage. Would not surprised if it sold already.
I may have misheard, but I believe the total NA production numbers for the NA 993 was around 70,000 and the total production numbers for the NA 9972. (Non GT3) was around 56,000.
If true that total NA 997.2 production numbers is almost 20% lower than NA 993s and most of the NA 997.2s were delivered with PDKs, the NA 997.2 Manual cars are much, much rarer than 993 NA manual cars.
The rarity, and not the overall desirability, is what is driving the 997.2 Manual market.
I agree. As I think I've said before though I kind of see the manual/PDK as two separate markets. A large majority of 997 and 991 buyers have no interest in manuals anymore and will obviously not pay a premium for something they don't want. Then you have the "must be a manual" buyers who have a very limited supply to choose from so that small pool of buyers drive the prices of the equally small number of manuals up.
I guess I just can't see how the price war over the few manuals that are only in demand by a small number of 911 buyers has any affect on the price of PDK cars that going by all statistics available are in much higher demand than manuals.
I agree. As I think I've said before though I kind of see the manual/PDK as two separate markets. A large majority of 997 and 991 buyers have no interest in manuals anymore and will obviously not pay a premium for something they don't want. Then you have the "must be a manual" buyers who have a very limited supply to choose from so that small pool of buyers drive the prices of the equally small number of manuals up.
I guess I just can't see how the price war over the few manuals that are only in demand by a small number of 911 buyers has any affect on the price of PDK cars that going by all statistics available are in much higher demand than manuals.
sandwedge, I think you've hit the nail on the head in your first paragraph. It's possible that those higher selling price manual transmission cars (and usually coupes) are making sellers of PDK cars list them at higher prices too, not really understanding the market, and if they're not willing to let them go at lower numbers, that drives the prices of all 997s up, including 997.1 cars as many buyers aren't nearly as well informed about the differences as those of us here on RL are.
As I've mentioned before, it doesn't really matter what creates the demand, once demand exceeds supply, prices go up until they reach a new equilibrium point. This is the same thing driving the GTS prices way up that we've seen lately. A manual GTS coupe is worth a fortune these days because there's no supply and high demand.
Apologize if I misinterpreted what you said and that my comment seemed only directed at you. I was also addressing some of the earlier comments in this thread by others and kind of lumped everything together.
FWIW, I picked up my GTS with less than 30k miles cheap as it was mislisted as and priced as an S by a Mercedes dealership. It was listed late on a Saturday night as an S with no pictures. I ran the Vin and quickly called and held the ca early the next morning0 before the General Manager got back that morning with the car. He had driven it home.
I am also not wed to a 997.2 GTS. Will be selling mine here soon to make room for an incoming 992 Turbo. I still think the 997.2 GTS is a MUCH better car looks and feel wise than the 991s.
I would not spend $130,000 on a GTS or any 9 year old Porsche 911. I would spend a few extra dollars and get something like this 458 that happens to be certified by Ferrari for not much more.
Ha! Good snipe Doug! What dealer was selling that 50k mile GTS for $85K a few posts back? Just curious.
I'm in the process of buying a 997.1 GT3 at the moment. I want to scratch that itch. I live two miles from Azusa Canyon / Hiway 39 so the heavy clutch won't kill me. This car has the clutch replaced and the newer one is slightly easier to deal with.
I don't know what to make of this market. Everyone's 401K and home values are huge, and nobody's selling their homes or their GTS as they ride the wave. In my industry they can't keep up with demand. If I shared just how much you would not believe it. Think I've heard this tune before.
01-30-2021, 02:09 AM
