sandwedge

Neither you nor I know why the the demand for manuals have dropped to 15% to 20% after the PDK was introduced and does it matter? As I've said repeatedly, I don't care what the reason is. The only thing I care about is the notion that's peddled time again that manuals are worth more because they're built in such small numbers. I can't find any evidence of this that affects the 911 market as a whole. Can you?

They're built in smaller numbers because fewer and fewer people want them. Not the typical way any product of any kind becomes more valuable. To a small segment of the market (15% to 20% in this case), yes, the manuals do become more valuable but to about 80% of 911 buyers they don't.

groovzilla

^^I get your point.
As a member of the 15-20%, who only desire Manual Transmission and wouldn't own an Automatic Transmission Sports Car, we are certainly outnumbered these days.
Our group of MT owners enjoys the regiment of shifting gears and being able to select random gears and manual shifting in mountain roads and during spirited driving.
For me that's what driving a Sports Car is all about. If I want Automatic I hop in my Land Rover.

Ironman88

I've driven manual transmission sports cars for nearly 50 years - starting with a '71 MGB when I was a teenager. A sports car always meant - at a minimum - that it had to have a manual shift. No exceptions.

My 911 is the first automatic (PDK) sports car that I've ever owned.

My sense is that there is a common perception that if it's a PDK - you just put it in "D" and head down the road. While of course you absolutely can do this, to me, the magic of the PDK comes about via putting it in manual mode - and using the console shifter (instead of the steering wheel buttons.) The range of movement with the shifter is small - so initiation from one gear to the next takes only a slight movement. Gear change is immediate - and without having to deal with any clutch work. I appreciate being able to focus on instantly (and intuitively) placing engine speed where I want it to be. Driving the various mountain roads where I'm now located, I've never felt that the PDK was an impediment or a detriment in being able to get what I want out of the engine and the car. Quite the opposite. I believe that years of experience with manuals has really helped me get more enjoyment out of the 911 with the PDK using it in manual mode.

Approaching the PDK with an open mind for me has been educational experience - one that I would have been completely shut down to in my past. The 911 with a PDK is an amazing vehicle.

The resale advantage / disadvantage is completely immaterial to me. I truly enjoy the car and am appreciative of it every time I drive it.

And with all of that said - now for the gratuitous photo:

sandwedge

I probably don't convey this well in my posts on this subject but I was really torn between another manual and the PDK when it was time to trade my 6sp -06 C4S. Drove the PDK in manual, sport plus mode and that's what won me over. The millisecond shifts are amazing and if shifting with the gear lever as opposed to the paddles or buttons it comes pretty close to a manual except you don't use your left leg and it does the heel/toe thing for you so no disagreement on less involvement in certain aspects. Most importantly though, the PDK doesn't feel like a traditional "automatic" to me if you utilize it to its fullest extent.

Well put, much of what was echoed in my response to groovzilla above. I drive my PDK just like you do. You may not be in manual/sport plus mode all the time but I am as soon as the oil is up to temperature. And as you, resale value is something that never enters my mind except when the idea that manuals command a large premium over PDK comes up. I just don't see evidence of this anywhere but would like to see it if it's really the case. Could be difficult to produce though since all we can find is asking prices. Asking and selling prices can have a large delta although dealers seem to give up next to nothing from their list prices.

jcsomerv

I’m with you. Why do people cherish the air-cooled cars? “Engagement”. A manual transmission and clutch is an enormous part of the experience of driving, of being in full control of the machine ... it takes skill, awareness and presence of mind to drive a manual well.. take it away and you remove a lot of the visceral driving experience we all buy 911s for (see reference to Land Rover above). As we move to electric (no transmissions at all - yuck!) the nostalgia for the engagement of a manual will only grow IMO. It maybe 15-20% of buyers who want them today, but I bet in the future, more and more will see the manual transmission as a critical component of the true Porsche sports car experience. The air-cooled cars are all slower, harder to live with day to day, and vast majority manual - yet their values are increasing because people want that experience.

Also, IMO 80%-90% of newer 911s are configured as PDK because many of them are leased by poseurs who are buying the name and prestige, not necessarily interested in a sports car. That crowd flips leases and wants the latest and greatest, including “what’s the fastest” - so they have bought PDK from new. In big numbers. The more hard-core crowd often buys off-lease (I did) from the this gang (who also, helpfully, take a massive depreciation hit) because they want a 911. I don’t think that new car demand for PDK is a true reflection of what 911 aficionados really desire. This further creates a supply / demand imbalance IMO.

In short, I think manual 911s, and 997s in particular, will see increased demand and they only made a few.... I’d keep the 997.

Doug H

Not about poseuars. Looks like you may still be driving an old air cooled car. Definitely need manual there as the tip was a torque robbing, torque converter slush box in a car already a bit anemic on power.

Manual makes total in the older, slower cars. Definitely, a manual in something like an older, air cooled 911, miata, S2000, Boxter and etc. is a great fit and the way to.

I drove and raced nothing but manual or sequential Porsches from 80s until I purchased a new 997.2 twin turbo cab with a pdk about 10 years ago. Since then, all of my Porsches and Italians have been clutch pedaless manuals.

I think for me the manual started feeling dated and below the performance nexus of the car in the 996tt. I think manual is still okay for the NA 997s, but clutch pedaless manuals on anything with real power and a higher level of performance is just the better fit provides a much more sporty, race car like feel.

Manual feels slow, clunky and out of place in really high end, high performance sports cars. A manual would be detracting to almost annoying in super/race car like feel in either my 458 or Performante. A manual would be okay (close call) on my 2012 GTS, but starts to feel dated and out of place with 911 having greater performance than my 2012 GTS.

heavysixer22

Interesting take, Doug, one I hadn't considered before.

My 997.1 C2S is a manual, and that feels like the perfect match for that car, plus it gives me a more engaged experience puttering around at lower speeds. I'm amazed that the car is even fun at 25 MPH.

But you're right that sports car speeds and technology have kind of left the manual behind, especially at or above 450HP or so.

That said, if I could afford it, I'd run right out and buy a 991.2 GT3T with three pedals, but mostly because I'd want to have more ways to play with that glorious engine.

Ripking

This is exactly right. The profile of a buyer of a new 911 and a used 911 are generally different and why 10-15 years down the line with the 997 you see a difference in pricing between the manuals and the automatics. Fewer people bought manuals from new, but those looking for a used 911 as an enthusiast car 10 years later find them in less numbers and thus they come at a premium.

Petza914

There are only 2 reasons I'd buy a PDK

1. Sitting in traffic frequently where clutch work becomes bothersome
2. Tracking the car where absolute speed matters and being able to focus more on the line, technique, braking points etc without having to do clutch work makes sense since the PDK cars are faster.

For regular and spirited driving, I'll take a manual transmission every day and twice on Sunday.

Values of MT cars are increasing due to supply and demand. My agreed value policy on my wife's 997 C2S with MT only showed an Agreed Value premium of 1% at the current level on the last declarations statement. They just raised the new agreed value by $9,000.

Iceter

jcsomerv

Fair point and I respect your opinion. I have a 964 and a 997.2. Both manual. Will never have a PDK personally. I wasn’t referring to PDK buyers as poseurs but rather many (not all) of the folks who in the last 15 years have been buying Porsches - the brand’s clientele has changed. As the 911 has become more of a GT car, and is produced in massive (relatively speaking) volumes, I know a lot of folks who have put 911s on lease and don’t even know the engine is in the back! These are the “poseurs” to whom I refer and are buying the Porsche name not a 911. And they ALL buy PDK. That was my point - the % of new cars ordered with PDK is NOT a reflection of what many enthusiasts want From a 911. This creates a supply demand imbalance later on and likely accounts for why manuals are higher priced in the used market.

PS: a super car with a 6-speed manual from the legendary Gordon Murray ...
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...6-speed-manual