997.2 3.8 Engine Failure
#571
Rennlist Member
I wasn't really complaining.. I just wanted a reason to post that funny MeMe photo I stole from FB...LOL
Anyway, thanks for the update! Any chance I can order another case and you ship it with my current back order when they come in? Or has it all be spoken for so far (including my first order of course)?
Thanks,
David
Anyway, thanks for the update! Any chance I can order another case and you ship it with my current back order when they come in? Or has it all be spoken for so far (including my first order of course)?
Thanks,
David
#572
Rennlist Member
I just wonder how unlikely would bore scoring NOT to happen with a car covering 33 miles in a year, moving in the confines of the lot and the odd test drives. All that cold start with oil starvation while the engine was bone dry, and then running with rich fuel diluting that oil, moisture buildup...etc, in essence the engine would be operating within those parameter with hardly any lubrications. Makes me wonder how in the world is it possible for any engine NOT to self-destruct under this scenario. Personally I'm not surprised at all. The damage was done when the car was new. Just my 2 cents.
However, we know from experience that new engines from Porsche have lots of manufacturing and break-in debris. This is why we would always drop the pan on new crate engines and put fresh break-in oil, then drain after the short break-in period. So what is to say that any engine serviced under the factory guidelines from new didn't have nasty stuff in the oil which in turn would increase wear.
At the end of the day, I wouldn't worry any more about a car the example car driven 33 miles in one year over another that was picked up with say, 5 miles, and didn't get it's first oil change for two years or up to 24,000 miles (original m96 OCI).
#573
First off, as so many others have said, we thank you for sharing your situation and for taking it in such good stride in spite of the financial and time hit you are taking. I'm not sure I'd handle it as well. Second, I know you are way far down the road with an excellent solution, so my post is more of a question for the future (and a search for "the" cause of your car's failure) so that we all can be better aware of factors that can affect the longevity of our 9A1 engines. I' m picking up my new to me 2011 997.2 GTS tomorrow!!!, so I'm real interested in what to do or avoid.
When I looked at the Carfax from your car, what immediately jumped out at me was the time/mileage record for the first year of its life in dealer inventory. As shown in copy of the first page of the report, it spent almost a year in inventory and covered exactly 33 miles (or less) during that year. How many times was it started and cold idled to "keep the battery up", move it on the lot. take it for a 1-3 mile test "drive" and other forms of potential mistreatment?? Of course no one knows or will ever know at this point.
Would Jake or Baz, or Charles, or anyone care to comment on the effect of this treatment of a BRAND NEW 997 on the potential for future scoring issues? Since in all 38 pages of this thread so far, I haven't seen a definitive cause of the scoring other than a manufacturing defect in the original casting, it might be worth considering this aspect.
Again, good luck, I've learned a lot (too much??) from this thread and of course I am subscribed.
When I looked at the Carfax from your car, what immediately jumped out at me was the time/mileage record for the first year of its life in dealer inventory. As shown in copy of the first page of the report, it spent almost a year in inventory and covered exactly 33 miles (or less) during that year. How many times was it started and cold idled to "keep the battery up", move it on the lot. take it for a 1-3 mile test "drive" and other forms of potential mistreatment?? Of course no one knows or will ever know at this point.
Would Jake or Baz, or Charles, or anyone care to comment on the effect of this treatment of a BRAND NEW 997 on the potential for future scoring issues? Since in all 38 pages of this thread so far, I haven't seen a definitive cause of the scoring other than a manufacturing defect in the original casting, it might be worth considering this aspect.
Again, good luck, I've learned a lot (too much??) from this thread and of course I am subscribed.
I am not buying the argument that "garage queens" are doomed to all of the fatal failures discussed in these forums. I have no evidence of bore scoring, I do not plan to remove the grease seal on the IMS and I use Mobil 1 0W-40 oil. With the exception that I change the oil every 3K miles and did not replace the spark plugs until the car was about 8 years old with about 27k miles ( the plugs were fine), I follow Porsche's maintenance schedule. Yes, I only have about 30K miles on my car and who knows what lies ahead but many folks report no major issues at 100K, 150K miles.
There are a number of theories out there. The only thing I have observed consistently over the last 10 years, reading these forum posts and other sources, is that the theories keep evolving which normal when we really are just on our way to understanding what is happening. I remember reading so many posts in the past that all cars with an IMS were doomed, all engines with Lokasil liners are doomed to scoring or D chunks, you have to break your car in like you stole it ( as opposed to what is stated in the owner's manual) and that you should not use Mobil 1.
Don't get me wrong, I believe that there are some real experts that are truly working to improve the knowledge of the workings of these cars and to provide good solutions to the weaknesses. I am just not sure we have figured out all of the cause/effect issues yet.
The experts are correct in letting us know what can happen. The airlines do this every time we prepare to depart in an airliner and yet I did still fly ( literally thousand of flights for me and, yet, I am still here). The risks are real but....
#574
Rennlist Member
Thanks Charles and Baz for the replies. And I am definitely looking forward to the updated report from Baz on scoring factors and conditions. Charles, you got me for a case of DI oil. Ordered it last night!
#575
Instructor
Was that discussed/examined? Significant over-revs would certainly cause higher loadings on those bearings and this could have happened at any time in the history of the engine.
Bill
#576
I’m curious about this too Bronz. What did your DME report look like? Thanks!
#577
Rennlist Member
I just wonder how unlikely would bore scoring NOT to happen with a car covering 33 miles in a year, moving in the confines of the lot and the odd test drives. All that cold start with oil starvation while the engine was bone dry, and then running with rich fuel diluting that oil, moisture buildup...etc, in essence the engine would be operating within those parameter with hardly any lubrications. Makes me wonder how in the world is it possible for any engine NOT to self-destruct under this scenario. Personally I'm not surprised at all. The damage was done when the car was new. Just my 2 cents.
#578
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
No over-rev report. Car is PDK. While over revs can happen with PDK, it is very unlikely.
#579
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Actually impossible I believe. The DME overrev ranges are different between the .1 and .2 cars. Where's as in .1s ranges 1 and 2 are overrevs, in the .2 cars, ranges 1 and 2 are below redline so with a PDK you may see range 1 and 2 overrevs logged, but they're technically overrevs, just high revs, and there's no way to money shift a PDK, which is really what creates overrevs.
The following users liked this post:
PorscheLiebhaber (07-08-2020)
#580
You can hit the rev limiter on a PDK and I have read that on steep downhills it is possible to do worse.
But it would be highly unlikely to see a lot of abuse with a PDK.
But it would be highly unlikely to see a lot of abuse with a PDK.
#582
Noted. It is possible to rev high before the engine is fully warmed up though, and unfortunately that is not captured in any logged ECU variables but I doubt any sensible owner would do this intentionally.
#583
Instructor
Hi Everyone,
This is a thread i was hoping to never start, but i think the unexpected has happened. Last night, i was driving the car home and all of the sudden i noticed that the car was making a weird noise at certain RPMs. At first i just thought it was the Christmas presents i had in my backseat shaking and making some noise as the car felt fine - no faults on the screen, and felt just as powerful as always. about 5-7 mins later i got off the highway and stopped at the light, roll down my window and hear a terrible engine knock. At this point i was about a minute away from my home so slowly drove home and parked the car in the garage and filmed the following video.
From the research ive done so far and the other videos ive watched, the sound resembles the symptoms of slapping pistons/scored cylinders. I have not found any 997.2 with this issue so far so im really puzzled, but im expecting the worst at this point.
Since i took ownership of this car over a year ago and 11k miles, ive done oil changes every 3k miles. The car was burning about 1qt of oil per 3k miles. I was using Castrol Edge in the beginning and ive done 2 blackstone oil analysis, which came back excellent. On the last oil change, i decided to use Motul and ive put maybe 1500-2000 miles on the oil since.
I checked the oil level and its perfect, not overfilled nor was it too low. The car developed the sound after it was up to operating temperatures - oil and coolant. I dont think it happened when i started the car or at least i didnt notice it. We did have cold temperatures last night about 28degrees,
The car currently has 76k miles.
What are my options? What kind of diagnosis can i do at home? Drain oil and look for shavings? The car doesnt have any faults or check engine on the dash.
What is the cost of new engine? Rebuild? 4.0 build?
Any suggestions on the shop around Chicago area?
Any advice is appreciated.
video:
https://youtu.be/8CZsu-l7T2A
This is a thread i was hoping to never start, but i think the unexpected has happened. Last night, i was driving the car home and all of the sudden i noticed that the car was making a weird noise at certain RPMs. At first i just thought it was the Christmas presents i had in my backseat shaking and making some noise as the car felt fine - no faults on the screen, and felt just as powerful as always. about 5-7 mins later i got off the highway and stopped at the light, roll down my window and hear a terrible engine knock. At this point i was about a minute away from my home so slowly drove home and parked the car in the garage and filmed the following video.
From the research ive done so far and the other videos ive watched, the sound resembles the symptoms of slapping pistons/scored cylinders. I have not found any 997.2 with this issue so far so im really puzzled, but im expecting the worst at this point.
Since i took ownership of this car over a year ago and 11k miles, ive done oil changes every 3k miles. The car was burning about 1qt of oil per 3k miles. I was using Castrol Edge in the beginning and ive done 2 blackstone oil analysis, which came back excellent. On the last oil change, i decided to use Motul and ive put maybe 1500-2000 miles on the oil since.
I checked the oil level and its perfect, not overfilled nor was it too low. The car developed the sound after it was up to operating temperatures - oil and coolant. I dont think it happened when i started the car or at least i didnt notice it. We did have cold temperatures last night about 28degrees,
The car currently has 76k miles.
What are my options? What kind of diagnosis can i do at home? Drain oil and look for shavings? The car doesnt have any faults or check engine on the dash.
What is the cost of new engine? Rebuild? 4.0 build?
Any suggestions on the shop around Chicago area?
Any advice is appreciated.
video:
https://youtu.be/8CZsu-l7T2A
Bill
#584
Rennlist Member
However, no cylinder solution is 100% impervious to damage when the engine is not operating properly, like with a leaky injector, or conditions like a vacuum leak that lead to over-fuelling.
#585
Nikasil is very resistant to scoring, much more so than Alusil, Lokasil, or Cast/Ductile Iron. Oerlikon's SUMEbore coating (of which there are several different versions) is about the only other cylinder process proven to be as durable as Nikasil with some added benefits over Nikasil.
However, no cylinder solution is 100% impervious to damage when the engine is not operating properly, like with a leaky injector, or conditions like a vacuum leak that lead to over-fuelling.
However, no cylinder solution is 100% impervious to damage when the engine is not operating properly, like with a leaky injector, or conditions like a vacuum leak that lead to over-fuelling.