$14k Cayman with nothing wrong?
08-25-2016, 09:41 PM
#34
Race Director
Pretty decent reply by the shop. even handed and generally straightforward. to defend slakker though, I don't think he intended to resell the car without disclosure of the potential issue.
Either way, I'm a bit surprised that the shop was ready to condemn the motor so quickly
Either way, I'm a bit surprised that the shop was ready to condemn the motor so quickly
08-25-2016, 10:36 PM
#35
Race Car
Thread Starter
Hi Bruce. Thanks for coming on and telling your side of the story. One quick clarification though is I think you didn't read my post very carefully. My plan was to examine the sump, get a UOA, and document it. Then drive 3500 miles, pull the sump again, get another UOA and document it. All of which would be posted on this forum so that a potential buyer would have all of the facts. You can check out my two '99 threads and other posts to see that I not only post the preventative maintenance I've done, but also the stupidity of using the wrong gas, twice. I have a lot of character flaws but lack of transparency isn't one of them.
Now then, as a customer of Autowerks, I would like to registered a complaint with the owner who I assume is you. I engaged your company to perform a PPI on a car for me that was in your shop that I was purchasing. I had reached an agreement with the car owner to purchase the car for $10k as long as no other major issues were found. I put this in writing and verified verbally with the owner twice to prevent paying for the PPI and then having the owner back out.
I then immediately called and talked to Johnnie (your shop foreman?), told him I had purchased the car pending completion of the PPI, and requested completion of the PPI along with photos of the particles in the oil filter. Johnnie took my credit card information, phone number, and told me the car was very nice and he didn't think there were any other issues. One thing that I thought was strange was he asked how much I was purchasing the car for. I just assumed it was curiousity and told him. We agreed he would call back with the results. An employee of your company then contacted the owner and convinced him that he should sell to your employee, for the same price I had negotiated, instead of me. I consider this unprofessional and unethical. I trusted your shop with information, after engaging it for business, and one of your employees used it for their gain. To have your insult me, a customer, in my home forum with your very first post on Rennlist just adds insult to injury.
Now then, I would also like to speak to you on a professional level. As has been stated on this board, I think it is a HUGE conflict of interest for a shop, or their employees, to purchase a vehicle, at less than half of market value, that they have diagnosed as catastophically damaged. Especially when the car runs and drives perfectly without issue. In addition, your shop provided no proof to the customer of the diagnosis. You based it upon finding particles of metal in the filter and instantly assumed it was the IMSB. Even though the '06 IMSB's have less than a 1% failure rate. You did not recommend further due diligence of examining the sump. You did not recommend having the metal analyzed via an Oil Analysis ($28!!!!) to see if it was even the same metal type as the IMSB. Your shop conveniently declared that it was one of the single most hyped failures in Porsche engine history.
The crazy thing is, we get this same story on this Forum, different flavor, about every month or two. Two of the four responses when the car owner posted his story and his car for sale were recommending he get a second opinion. That's because everyone is sick and tired of seeing people get duped by this crap. Could the IMSB be in the process of failing? Sure. But I would think that you would do a little more due diligence than seeing particles in a filter before recommending a loyal customer take a $13k loss on their car. I have had particles in both of my filters (two '99s, one with an 06 crate M96 replacement) at times and you can go look in the Blackstone oil analysis thread to see precisely what the content was because that's where I posted the results.
And as to the technician that is going to pull apart the engine now that he has purchased it to verify the IMS is bad. If it's not, is he going to pay the additional $13k that the car is worth if his cursory diagnosis is wrong?
Now then, as a customer of Autowerks, I would like to registered a complaint with the owner who I assume is you. I engaged your company to perform a PPI on a car for me that was in your shop that I was purchasing. I had reached an agreement with the car owner to purchase the car for $10k as long as no other major issues were found. I put this in writing and verified verbally with the owner twice to prevent paying for the PPI and then having the owner back out.
I then immediately called and talked to Johnnie (your shop foreman?), told him I had purchased the car pending completion of the PPI, and requested completion of the PPI along with photos of the particles in the oil filter. Johnnie took my credit card information, phone number, and told me the car was very nice and he didn't think there were any other issues. One thing that I thought was strange was he asked how much I was purchasing the car for. I just assumed it was curiousity and told him. We agreed he would call back with the results. An employee of your company then contacted the owner and convinced him that he should sell to your employee, for the same price I had negotiated, instead of me. I consider this unprofessional and unethical. I trusted your shop with information, after engaging it for business, and one of your employees used it for their gain. To have your insult me, a customer, in my home forum with your very first post on Rennlist just adds insult to injury.
Now then, I would also like to speak to you on a professional level. As has been stated on this board, I think it is a HUGE conflict of interest for a shop, or their employees, to purchase a vehicle, at less than half of market value, that they have diagnosed as catastophically damaged. Especially when the car runs and drives perfectly without issue. In addition, your shop provided no proof to the customer of the diagnosis. You based it upon finding particles of metal in the filter and instantly assumed it was the IMSB. Even though the '06 IMSB's have less than a 1% failure rate. You did not recommend further due diligence of examining the sump. You did not recommend having the metal analyzed via an Oil Analysis ($28!!!!) to see if it was even the same metal type as the IMSB. Your shop conveniently declared that it was one of the single most hyped failures in Porsche engine history.
The crazy thing is, we get this same story on this Forum, different flavor, about every month or two. Two of the four responses when the car owner posted his story and his car for sale were recommending he get a second opinion. That's because everyone is sick and tired of seeing people get duped by this crap. Could the IMSB be in the process of failing? Sure. But I would think that you would do a little more due diligence than seeing particles in a filter before recommending a loyal customer take a $13k loss on their car. I have had particles in both of my filters (two '99s, one with an 06 crate M96 replacement) at times and you can go look in the Blackstone oil analysis thread to see precisely what the content was because that's where I posted the results.
And as to the technician that is going to pull apart the engine now that he has purchased it to verify the IMS is bad. If it's not, is he going to pay the additional $13k that the car is worth if his cursory diagnosis is wrong?
08-25-2016, 11:03 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
08-25-2016, 11:38 PM
#37
I don't have a dog in this hunt and can't/won't tell Bruce how to run his shop (I did like his answering though, many would not have written anything, it gives him credibility), but in general a policy of not letting employees purchase customer's cars that were found by the same company to be worth less than full retail for whatever reason but especially without absolute and unquestionable verification (i.e. hole in the block for example) would go a long way toward completely eliminating ANY suspicion on the part of anyone.
Slakker's question about if the IMS bearing is found to be completely intact and the metal is from something much easier to replace (or is normal) is a good one, what happens then? It doesn't matter what the issue actually is to answer this question as it's theoretical at this point.
Other industries have such policies regarding client sales, being in real estate it is definitely frowned upon (at best) to take advantage of a client (even if the intent is to help) and purchase a property for one's own portfolio or to resell later if there is a perceived issue with it or if there is inside knowledge regarding the seller's finances. Sure, it helps the client out now (or at least that's the justification), but one could just as easily help the client by selling it to an unrelated party for whatever the market will bear without then having any potential blowback. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it does, definitely, but people talk and they have long memories. Better just to avoid it, if your reputation is good there is no need to go for the big kill, you'll be amply rewarded just by being good at what you do. The tech in question here could just as easily buy and repair any number of rollers that pop up on here for far less than any regular person.
Slakker's question about if the IMS bearing is found to be completely intact and the metal is from something much easier to replace (or is normal) is a good one, what happens then? It doesn't matter what the issue actually is to answer this question as it's theoretical at this point.
Other industries have such policies regarding client sales, being in real estate it is definitely frowned upon (at best) to take advantage of a client (even if the intent is to help) and purchase a property for one's own portfolio or to resell later if there is a perceived issue with it or if there is inside knowledge regarding the seller's finances. Sure, it helps the client out now (or at least that's the justification), but one could just as easily help the client by selling it to an unrelated party for whatever the market will bear without then having any potential blowback. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it does, definitely, but people talk and they have long memories. Better just to avoid it, if your reputation is good there is no need to go for the big kill, you'll be amply rewarded just by being good at what you do. The tech in question here could just as easily buy and repair any number of rollers that pop up on here for far less than any regular person.
08-26-2016, 12:38 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
08-26-2016, 02:33 AM
#40
Race Director
Me too. Way back in my young and naive days, I got totally scammed out of a car by a shop that claimed the repair would be more than the car was worth.
So, I sold the car to the shop owner for next to nothing. I later found out that he wanted the car for himself, because it was a limited edition with rare options.
So, I sold the car to the shop owner for next to nothing. I later found out that he wanted the car for himself, because it was a limited edition with rare options.
08-26-2016, 10:05 AM
#42
but IF what Slakker said is true, the shop buying it out from under him after he negotiated price and paid for ppi is shady AF. if Slakker kept his biz to himself, he'd probably be in a cayman now.
08-26-2016, 10:45 AM
#43
I applaud both sides for telling their sides and views.
As my father was a small business owner, he had to always make revisions to his business process and policies due to new things or unforeseen things that came up. Members here have also seen revisions from people like Jake over the years.
This maybe one of those things where Bruce might have to change his policy and only have employees buy a car outside of work in their own setting and not have it affiliated with the company in any way.
As for the car owner, business wise, if he signed a contract, he should've honored it. However in this case, it seems his heart was stronger and decided to go with who he trusted and knew the longest. It could be a similiar situation like selling a car and feeling good taking a loss to sell it to your nephew for example.
Well the deal is done so no use in crying over spilled milk here.
As my father was a small business owner, he had to always make revisions to his business process and policies due to new things or unforeseen things that came up. Members here have also seen revisions from people like Jake over the years.
This maybe one of those things where Bruce might have to change his policy and only have employees buy a car outside of work in their own setting and not have it affiliated with the company in any way.
As for the car owner, business wise, if he signed a contract, he should've honored it. However in this case, it seems his heart was stronger and decided to go with who he trusted and knew the longest. It could be a similiar situation like selling a car and feeling good taking a loss to sell it to your nephew for example.
Well the deal is done so no use in crying over spilled milk here.
08-26-2016, 11:10 AM
#44
Rat Balls
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Other industries have such policies regarding client sales, being in real estate it is definitely frowned upon (at best) to take advantage of a client (even if the intent is to help) and purchase a property for one's own portfolio or to resell later if there is a perceived issue with it or if there is inside knowledge regarding the seller's finances. Sure, it helps the client out now (or at least that's the justification), but one could just as easily help the client by selling it to an unrelated party for whatever the market will bear without then having any potential blowback.
I'm firmly with Slakker. When he contracted with the shop to perform the PPI, they owed him certain fiduciary responsibilities that they clearly neglected. It cost him time, money and a potential profit, only to possibly enrich themselves. If they are willing to go this route, what else are they capable of doing?
Slakker...did they actually charge you for the PPI?
08-26-2016, 11:23 AM
#45
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And how is a Rennlist Member ("edq882") allowed to sell a car to another Rennlist Member (Slakker) and then renege on a deal? Without ramifications. I thought that's what protects us a paid Rennlist Mambers? A mod should infract Rennlister "edq882" at the very least, and ban at the most severe.