cylinder scoring - can it be solved with a block heater?
#16
but it seems logical that pressurized prelube would help more than a block heater.
#17
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
No amount of pressurized oil will help if the clearance between the piston and the cylinder is not sufficient due to cold temperatures. A bock/oil pan heater will help to increase these clearances so any amount of heat is better than none, if clearance is the problem.
It's basically a big bad drier (air pump) that pumps air into the exhaust manifolds when the engine is cold to help get the catalytics working sooner.
It's basically a big bad drier (air pump) that pumps air into the exhaust manifolds when the engine is cold to help get the catalytics working sooner.
#18
The biggest mistake people make is firing the car up in winter and allowing it to warm the cabin before they get in, or allowing too much engine warm up time at idle. This keeps the cold start, and just started enrichment higher and for a longer amount of time. All the while the injectors are dumping excess fuel to help light the catalytic converters off, with help of secondary air injection. This fuel is pure solvent, washing down the oil thats the lifeblood of the cylinders and pistons.
Load= Heat. Get in, strap in, fire up and drive away lightly and the engine will not see nearly as much over- enrichment.
Load= Heat. Get in, strap in, fire up and drive away lightly and the engine will not see nearly as much over- enrichment.
I realize a lot of people will not get into a car unless it's warm and toasty on a cold morning but that's how I've been driving my (water cooled) cars for years.
#19
Race Director
The heater core draws heat from the coolant; the thermostat doesn't allow circulation of coolant until the engine is hot. I'm curious (genuinely, not being argumentative at all) how not running the heat makes the engine warm up faster. I'd think that the air-cooled cars would benefit more from keeping the heater off than the water-cooled models...
#20
Race Director
Idea being the cold air being blown across the heater core reduces the coolant temperature, causing it to take longer for the coolant temperature to rise and the thermostat to open. Thermostat (as I understand it) prevents flow to the radiators, but the coolant is still circulating through the block as the water pump is still turning.
Aircooled cars rely on exhaust heat to generate cabin heat, so no difference there.
Aircooled cars rely on exhaust heat to generate cabin heat, so no difference there.
#21
No amount of pressurized oil will help if the clearance between the piston and the cylinder is not sufficient due to cold temperatures. A bock/oil pan heater will help to increase these clearances so any amount of heat is better than none, if clearance is the problem.
I would imagine it would not be an option at every place one travels during the winter months in cold climates. Hence, the best practice is to stick with climate control storage until warmer outside temps are back.
#22
The heater core draws heat from the coolant; the thermostat doesn't allow circulation of coolant until the engine is hot. I'm curious (genuinely, not being argumentative at all) how not running the heat makes the engine warm up faster. I'd think that the air-cooled cars would benefit more from keeping the heater off than the water-cooled models...
When you turn your heat on you're opening up the valves that circulate a (now) larger volume of water through the system - taking longer for it to all warm up.
On a cold morning in my daily (BMW 325i), I can drive off and leave the heater off, or, turn it on and watch how fast the water temp (idiot gauge) reaches its normal range. With the heater off the needle gets there quicker. I can also drive off with the heater off, watch the temp needle rise, then turn on the heat and watch the temp needle pause or even start to reverse direction momentarily and then start to rise again. Not sure if a 996 temp gauge would behave the same way.
Starting up and letting the car idle for five minutes with the heater on really takes a while for the engine to warm up. Like Jake says - that's the worst for numerous reasons.
Now, if I lived in Wisconsin, parked outside in winter, I might have the heat on but still drive off without a long warm-up.
As a side note, my 325i has 200,000 miles on it and uses about 10 ounces or so of oil between 6500 mile changes (if there is any relevance there...).
Last edited by KNS; 01-06-2016 at 05:21 PM.
#23
Rennlist Member
The biggest mistake people make is firing the car up in winter and allowing it to warm the cabin before they get in, or allowing too much engine warm up time at idle. This keeps the cold start, and just started enrichment higher and for a longer amount of time. All the while the injectors are dumping excess fuel to help light the catalytic converters off, with help of secondary air injection. This fuel is pure solvent, washing down the oil thats the lifeblood of the cylinders and pistons.
Load= Heat. Get in, strap in, fire up and drive away lightly and the engine will not see nearly as much over- enrichment.
Load= Heat. Get in, strap in, fire up and drive away lightly and the engine will not see nearly as much over- enrichment.
#24
Race Director
#25
Can someone who believes cold temps/starts contribute to this please define what these cold temps are? Also, please provide some empirical data to back up the theory.
Cheers
Cheers
#26
Former Vendor
The Canadian C4 cars are the worst with the failures. Why? Because they are effective in snow. Monday someone called and I answered the phone. He says "I am in Toronto, and I have a 2005 C4 997" I stopped him right there and said "...and your engine started making a ticking sound, that sounded like a lifter, and you were told that it was. It got a little louder, then the engine started to consume more oil than normal.... then it started to throw misfire codes, and now one of the tailpipes is darker than the other, and the ticking noise is even louder than ever". The phone went silent. I had to ask if he was still there. He then said "How in the world did you explain my issue to me verbatim, has my son already called you this morning?".
My reply was "Sir, I hear this every week, sometimes 2-3 times per week, if I couldn't take the words out of your mouth, you'd never believe that I actually know what your issues are from over 1,000 miles away."
The exact temperature this becomes an issue is not known, and won't be, because of the variables that I mentioned earlier, which effect the dynamics of the failure and makes each a case by case basis. Sure, I could lie to you, and say that one issue is the root of all this evil, but thats not how I am wired.
That said, winter blend fuels, especially in the mid- west are another contributing factor, and one reason why I see more vehicles from there, than we do from the NE, when there are more of these vehicles in the NE.
As far as sharing empirical data, well, I won't do that. Why? Because its just an argument point here online, and on top of that, the data costs money to collect, and I'm not running a charitable organization here. Development is what I do, its my business, and business is good.
You can learn all you need to know with an M96 block & piston, a freezer, a bore gauge, and a micrometer. You just have to understand what the engine, and those data points are telling you.
#27
Interesting,
Curious because we have 3 motors right now with scored cylinders. Spent most of their lives in the western/southwest states, so when I hear cold weather being the issue it begs the question...
Not sure if you will be here anytime soon providing a WorldPac course (I didn't see any listed this year), but I will enroll and we can discuss our findings. But, I will shoot you an email offline or give you a ring and we can share our thoughts.
Cheers
Curious because we have 3 motors right now with scored cylinders. Spent most of their lives in the western/southwest states, so when I hear cold weather being the issue it begs the question...
Not sure if you will be here anytime soon providing a WorldPac course (I didn't see any listed this year), but I will enroll and we can discuss our findings. But, I will shoot you an email offline or give you a ring and we can share our thoughts.
Cheers
#28
Drifting
I see most of the cars come from the midwest US, and all across Canada. We don't really see the issues from south of Tennessee/ Arkansas, unless a hard winter was experienced, like we've had the past two years. During those two years I had failures from as far south as Alabama and northern Texas. We'd never had that before.
The Canadian C4 cars are the worst with the failures. Why? Because they are effective in snow. Monday someone called and I answered the phone. He says "I am in Toronto, and I have a 2005 C4 997" I stopped him right there and said "...and your engine started making a ticking sound, that sounded like a lifter, and you were told that it was. It got a little louder, then the engine started to consume more oil than normal.... then it started to throw misfire codes, and now one of the tailpipes is darker than the other, and the ticking noise is even louder than ever". The phone went silent. I had to ask if he was still there. He then said "How in the world did you explain my issue to me verbatim, has my son already called you this morning?".
My reply was "Sir, I hear this every week, sometimes 2-3 times per week, if I couldn't take the words out of your mouth, you'd never believe that I actually know what your issues are from over 1,000 miles away."
The exact temperature this becomes an issue is not known, and won't be, because of the variables that I mentioned earlier, which effect the dynamics of the failure and makes each a case by case basis. Sure, I could lie to you, and say that one issue is the root of all this evil, but thats not how I am wired.
That said, winter blend fuels, especially in the mid- west are another contributing factor, and one reason why I see more vehicles from there, than we do from the NE, when there are more of these vehicles in the NE.
As far as sharing empirical data, well, I won't do that. Why? Because its just an argument point here online, and on top of that, the data costs money to collect, and I'm not running a charitable organization here. Development is what I do, its my business, and business is good.
You can learn all you need to know with an M96 block & piston, a freezer, a bore gauge, and a micrometer. You just have to understand what the engine, and those data points are telling you.
The Canadian C4 cars are the worst with the failures. Why? Because they are effective in snow. Monday someone called and I answered the phone. He says "I am in Toronto, and I have a 2005 C4 997" I stopped him right there and said "...and your engine started making a ticking sound, that sounded like a lifter, and you were told that it was. It got a little louder, then the engine started to consume more oil than normal.... then it started to throw misfire codes, and now one of the tailpipes is darker than the other, and the ticking noise is even louder than ever". The phone went silent. I had to ask if he was still there. He then said "How in the world did you explain my issue to me verbatim, has my son already called you this morning?".
My reply was "Sir, I hear this every week, sometimes 2-3 times per week, if I couldn't take the words out of your mouth, you'd never believe that I actually know what your issues are from over 1,000 miles away."
The exact temperature this becomes an issue is not known, and won't be, because of the variables that I mentioned earlier, which effect the dynamics of the failure and makes each a case by case basis. Sure, I could lie to you, and say that one issue is the root of all this evil, but thats not how I am wired.
That said, winter blend fuels, especially in the mid- west are another contributing factor, and one reason why I see more vehicles from there, than we do from the NE, when there are more of these vehicles in the NE.
As far as sharing empirical data, well, I won't do that. Why? Because its just an argument point here online, and on top of that, the data costs money to collect, and I'm not running a charitable organization here. Development is what I do, its my business, and business is good.
You can learn all you need to know with an M96 block & piston, a freezer, a bore gauge, and a micrometer. You just have to understand what the engine, and those data points are telling you.
However, there is one thing I do know and that is you get to retain the doom and gloom/fear monger King award. Yes, not even the troll KK can take this honor from you, IMHO, as he does not earn money from posting his nonsensical scare tactics -- but you do.
#29
Former Vendor
Interesting,
Curious because we have 3 motors right now with scored cylinders. Spent most of their lives in the western/southwest states, so when I hear cold weather being the issue it begs the question...
Not sure if you will be here anytime soon providing a WorldPac course (I didn't see any listed this year), but I will enroll and we can discuss our findings. But, I will shoot you an email offline or give you a ring and we can share our thoughts.
Cheers
Curious because we have 3 motors right now with scored cylinders. Spent most of their lives in the western/southwest states, so when I hear cold weather being the issue it begs the question...
Not sure if you will be here anytime soon providing a WorldPac course (I didn't see any listed this year), but I will enroll and we can discuss our findings. But, I will shoot you an email offline or give you a ring and we can share our thoughts.
Cheers
That said, the things I mentioned earlier that go along with this failure, as contributing factors can add up to the problem as well, without the cold factor. What proves that is how many scored cylinders occur in the UK (tons) where the winters are very mild compared to here in the USA.
These failures also occur with Cayenne engines, and the symptoms, as well as the worn components look almost exactly the same. This is odd, because the cayenne blocks are alusil, not lokasil, like the M96/M97.
The cold weather operation factor is just a catalyst for this failure. It is not THE root issue, but it forces the root issue to create symptoms faster.
BTW- Tony Callas and I quit instructing classes for Worldpac early last year. We now instruct for www.theknowledgegruppe.com in cooperation with SSF Auto Parts, and have online, and hands- on classes listed for 2016 on the site now.
Dream Carerra,
How many M96 engines have you disassembled with scored cylinders? How many M96 components have you developed? Where's your data?
#30
How about with your detailed information about how anything Jake has said is "BS"? How about your resume to show how you have enough experience and knowledge to be considered an authority on the subject?
You sir are the one being a troll and detriment to the thread/forum by posting such useless commentary in an attempt to derail the thread.
You sir are the one being a troll and detriment to the thread/forum by posting such useless commentary in an attempt to derail the thread.