Flat6 Innovations

I think that those who attended my enthusiast Rebuild School last month wouldn't agree with that statement after seeing how many things we showed them, that generally didn't come naturally to the engine assembly.

No, room doesn't exist there for them, unless the suspension upright is chopped on. They are totally, and completely un- necessary, anyway.

Ahsai

Nothing is mystical after you learned the tricks

I'm very tempted to try the piston and block in the freezer test but I don't have a freezer in my garage. I'm a "trust but verify' kind of guy. I bought a roller and disassembled the engine and measured a few things just to satisfy my own curiosity https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post12583536

Found exactly what Jake has been saying all along. You don't really need to build 100's of engines to understand it. One disassmbly and study of the internal structure, oil paths, coolant path are good enough.

That's before I attended Jake's engine rebuild class. Once you've seen (and measured) the internals and attended Jake's class, you will tend to agree with Jake and will see his posts differently.

wyovino

So, after all of that, let's get back to the original question. Understanding that there are multiple factors causing this issue, is it reasonable to say that eliminating one of them, by using a block heater, may help?

Flat6 Innovations

It could, IF you could warm enough of the block uniformly. The best block heater would run an electric pump to transfer the coolant through all of the coolant passages evenly, warming the entire engine.

The issue with that, is as the coolant passes through the radiators, you then cool the temperatures down significantly just from heat exchange with the environment. I guess an electric blanket could be employed over them, though!

mharrison

Jake, do you have any thoughts on additives that might help with the contribution winter blend fuels add to this issue? It occurred to me that those in the mid-west might like to know this. I would be surprised if the fuels we get here in the SE are much different in winter, but I could be wrong!

KrazyK

1. Exactly. Jakes advice here is free. Enjoy it or discard it, your choice.

2. He is a site SPONSOR and is certainly allowed to advertise his services anytime he wants.

3. These harsh disrespectful comments are strange even coming from DC. What the hell happened to him in the new year?

Flat6 Innovations

I have no idea about an additive that could balance this. Between all my experience with oils, and fuels, the only time to use an additive, is never... Its possible for an additive to imbalance what it is being added to, based upon the composition of the product.

This mode of failure is the one where luck is either on your side, or it isn't.

wildbilly32

WOW! Not sure what just happened there! Jake: Thanks for your info shared freely and congrats on maintaining proper behavior. Not sure I would have! My guess is some just want to stir the pot or need "proof" to accept anything. "Trolls", I guess or perhaps just sadly misguided/damaged.

Flat6 Innovations

Its ok, its always this way here.

Its kind of a game for me to guess which of the members will take issue with what I say, what they will say, and who is going to call me a fear monger first.

Imo000

Every now and then some really useful data might pop up but you have to know what you are reading to pick this up. Majority of the info is " partial information" that's enough to gain interest in the average reader to act as an advertisement for Jake. Vast majority of Jake's post has some burried advertisement in it. This is not what the gearhead/DIY community is all about but then again we are not here to make money either so the agenda is different. How when he is accused of not sharing info, fairly shortly after this, all of a sudden some useful stuff will surface from him but this is a rare occurrence. I fully understand why his data is proprietary but constantly reminding those that ask about it is BS. If you bring up or join into a topic that you have some real data and then saying "sorry it's proprietary" is a really low move. It's nothing more than advertisement.

Over time DIYers that work on these engines will share data and slowly vital data and info will become available to everyone but for that, the 996 owner demographics need to change. And it will, it already started a few years ago. In the next 5, most owners will be like those on the 928 or the 944 forum where you can find information on how to fix ANYTHING on those cars and people that are genuinely willing to help you with no hidden agendas. Couple others and myself are the few that are willing to share our experiences during our engine projects. In time there will be more like us.

Van

I don't really have much useful to contribute. But I'll post a few pictures...

I drive my 996 year round. While it parks in a garage at home, it's out in the elements at the train station when I'm at work.

I had a ticking sound, coming from the top of the engine - like a lifter...

Flat6 Innovations

Classic symptom and classic mid- bore wear. That's textbook.

But, it never happened, cold weather can't hurt the engine, and now you are also a fear monger. Lol!

Based on what some of you guys claim about my advertising in posts, I think I may have missed my true calling in life, by not founding a marketing company. Damn, I must be good!

dan_189

Thanks!

Chiamac

I hope it comes to that, and maybe it will, but I think the owner demo for the 996 is a little different than it would be for the old air cooled cars or the 944/928. We're generally more likely to bring it to a shop for work than try to do it ourselves, and the cost of doing it ourselves isn't "cheap" anyway.

I think we will start to see more DIY when cylinders and other parts come down in price to where a normal person may want to take a shot at it, or to where spare engine prices go down to where we're not tinkering around with a $10-15k engine.

Flat6 Innovations

That day won't come with quality items, that are truly developed, and proven.

Each year prices go UP, not down with these engines, as the cost of labor, and the cost of business creep up due to inflation.

The ONLY chance that the truly developed offerings have in becoming less costly, is if the volume goes up tremendously, and we can make larger runs of parts, which can be produced cheaper per unit.

The cheap, less than proven, half assed engines, and components may drop in price, but that'll only be due to the providers doing everything they can to stay alive.

I sat back and watched this exact same thing happen with aircooled engines, and cars. The REAL options have a big price tag, but offer value that the people who want to create some start- up company to compete with can't see, or appreciate. They start slashing prices, then they realize the amount of work that goes into it, then they have to cut quality to make a little more money, but by then they have so many engines that have failed that it takes out their reputation. Its a catch 22 then, because even if they wanted to stand behind the engines, they are so broke that they can't afford to.

The most expensive Porsche engine you'll ever own, is the cheapest one that you can buy. No one will appreciate this until they experience it. Lots of people have these days, almost 1/2 of our work today comes from the failed attempts of others, thats way different than it was in the early days, when no one else would dare touch one of these engines.

As far as the car getting older, and things becoming cheaper, well, I won't touch an aircooled Porsche flat 6 engine for less than 25K, which is more expensive than my most expensive 4.0L M96/ M97 street engine, making 420HP. Most of the aircooled engines run 30-35K, and these prices have been the same since 1999.

Hell, I charge the same to build a 4 cylinder aircooled performance 914 engine as I charge for an M96/ M97, and have a line out the door for them.
Here's what I am building today... 4.1L 964 based beast for a Beck 904 GTS



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