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2 in 1 day...Fire me up ! And Yaz... have mercy ! is that thing looking so, so good. I wonder if you are the first guy to post an M96 self built. Big props to you.
Also, you were the 300th post, and you made 300WHP... someone cue up the x files music.
M Tanner made me aware of a race shop across the street from my indie. I had no clue they had a hub dyno! So great crew to work with. I learned so much about why DFI motors had carbon issues. Goods/bads/neutrals about port and DFI. Why the first year or two of any DFI engine is an “avoid” for a used car. So the bump down in the curves at 5200 rpm is because of cat temp. ECU adds fuel to cool cats and cause rich condition. Oh, and they ran numbers for my car. Fun 90 minutes! Way more fun than the Nashville Soccer Club 90 minute s***show later that night.
Of note, the first run was straight up 310 whp. This is a hub dyno we’re talking here. They’re rated for 5-digit lb-ft numbers and they’re very accurate. These folks at Only Motorsports look for huff, not puff. So the last 2 runs were to assess what my torque curve looked like. I knew this sucker laid down some power. Didn’t think it was as much as a 997.2S with a flatter curve.
For the dyno runs the ABS control and 2 PSM breakers needed to be pulled. Lights cleared after I moved about 20 feet.
290whp for 270lbft
252 avg torque
3.8 Protech Motorsports build
yea great guys there! As soon as my ducktail comes in I’ll run mine down there and post my numbers here.
M Tanner made me aware of a race shop across the street from my indie. I had no clue they had a hub dyno! So great crew to work with. I learned so much about why DFI motors had carbon issues. Goods/bads/neutrals about port and DFI. Why the first year or two of any DFI engine is an “avoid” for a used car. So the bump down in the curves at 5200 rpm is because of cat temp. ECU adds fuel to cool cats and cause rich condition. Oh, and they ran numbers for my car. Fun 90 minutes! Way more fun than the Nashville Soccer Club 90 minute s***show later that night.
Of note, the first run was straight up 310 whp. This is a hub dyno we’re talking here. They’re rated for 5-digit lb-ft numbers and they’re very accurate. These folks at Only Motorsports look for huff, not puff. So the last 2 runs were to assess what my torque curve looked like. I knew this sucker laid down some power. Didn’t think it was as much as a 997.2S with a flatter curve.
For the dyno runs the ABS control and 2 PSM breakers needed to be pulled. Lights cleared after I moved about 20 feet.
290whp for 270lbft
252 avg torque
3.8 Protech Motorsports build
Next time call me as I'll participate since I'm down the street
3.8L home build. 997S airbox, IPD Comp plenum, GT3 throttle body, Hoffman headwork including oversized intake valves, Agency Power headers, Top Gear UK crossover cats. No tune yet. 300 WHP, 273 ft-lb according to the Dynojet.
awesome job @Yaz ! Doing the rebuild by yourself is no joke.. mad props !
We are starting to get a good book of data here, what would be really awesome is if we could get some more stock data points. And, thanks again to all the folks that have contributed by posting your graphs and details about your cars !
A couple alternative ways to view the data we have collected so far below. The question that I have looking at this is - why do people go with 3.8's as opposed to 4.0 when they choose to rebuild. If you're starting with a 3.6, the money to get to low 300's is a small, small fraction of what it takes to get to the 317 a 3.8 is showing and the 4.0's provide a pretty substantial jump over the 3.8's. Is a 4.0 build considerably more expensive than a 3.8 ?
^^^^From the top of my nugget I’d say some added expense with parts and tuning. Cams, head work, 99 to 101 increase, ECU programming, making intake and exhaust breath much better, etc. These Bosch units like to veer towards rich from what I’ve learned. A 4.0 would need someone skilled to tune when to pull fuel or advance timing. That said, I wonder how many shops would build a top-notch 4.0/plus with a solid warranty. If I’m plopping down $25,000 plus for any rebuild, I want as close to bulletproof as I can get. Many more variables when displacement rises above 3.8, 3.9 threshold.
For me, if I’m building a beastly 4.0, I’m budgeting a lot more for overall project upgrades. Brakes, suspension will need upgraded performance on par with a GT3. Or I do an LS or 2.7T swap and with the money I save I get dream wheels and suspension. Then we segue into the “Then why not buy a GT3 or a Turbo?” discussion.
For my 3.6 to 3.8 build, the torque curve is very good for any size of non-turbo M96 or M97. It’s almost half a second faster to 60 than my previous 3.6 (RIP).
Last edited by hatchetf15; 11-10-2023 at 12:00 AM.
Reason: Needed to use word segue.
We are starting to get a good book of data here, what would be really awesome is if we could get some more stock data points. And, thanks again to all the folks that have contributed by posting your graphs and details about your cars !
A couple alternative ways to view the data we have collected so far below. The question that I have looking at this is - why do people go with 3.8's as opposed to 4.0 when they choose to rebuild. If you're starting with a 3.6, the money to get to low 300's is a small, small fraction of what it takes to get to the 317 a 3.8 is showing and the 4.0's provide a pretty substantial jump over the 3.8's. Is a 4.0 build considerably more expensive than a 3.8 ?
As this data set grows, it might be worth making the distinction for VarioCam vs VarioCamPlus on the 3.8 builds at least.
For my 3.8 FSI build I went for the 3.8 for several reasons . One was parts availability at the time . Two the 3.8 from FSI had at the time rock solid performance and reliability and still does . Three I wasn't looking to build the highest hp/tq engine I wanted rock solid with good performance improvements and that's what I got .
A year plus later FSI has built many 4.0's and they have proven to be reliable and powerful . I have witnessed so many dyno pulls and driven so many for Jake that I know they all perform well .
If I had to do it all over again would I change anything ? No I wouldn't . If I had an unlimited budget ? Yeah I might . But not necessarily in displacement . My 3.8 could really pop if I were to do cams and intake mods . I am almost maxed out currently .
I have watched flow bench work in person . There are items being developed that are making huge gains in performance in regards to intake and exhaust . If I had more $$$ that's where I would invest IF I was looking to maximize power . I am happy with with how my 3.8 performs . Sorry for the long winded reply and infomercial 😋
3.8L home build. 997S airbox, IPD Comp plenum, GT3 throttle body, Hoffman headwork including oversized intake valves, Agency Power headers, Top Gear UK crossover cats. No tune yet. 300 WHP, 273 ft-lb according to the Dynojet.
I had to quote the picture. Your car is effing spectacular. I hope to see it next season, not that your Toyota isn't sweet - this is so much greatness.
A couple alternative ways to view the data we have collected so far below. The question that I have looking at this is - why do people go with 3.8's as opposed to 4.0 when they choose to rebuild. If you're starting with a 3.6, the money to get to low 300's is a small, small fraction of what it takes to get to the 317 a 3.8 is showing and the 4.0's provide a pretty substantial jump over the 3.8's. Is a 4.0 build considerably more expensive than a 3.8 ?
I went through the old FSI "program" so take that as the basis for the rest of my comments. At that time the cost difference between an FSI 3.8 and 4.0 was about 20%. However when I added all of the associated costs -- engine removal/installation, necessary bits that were not part of the engine build, other upgrades, and "while you're in there" stuff -- I estimated that the cost difference was going to be more like 10%, maybe even lower. It made economic sense to me to choose the 4.0.
"why do people go with 3.8's as opposed to 4.0 when they choose to rebuild."
I chose the 3.8 FSI over the 4.0 because of what I read and through my discussions with Jake. It offered all I would ever want or need. It was not a choice driven by money. I am not a racer boi so I don't need over the top HP and TQ. The 3.8 gives me more than I need/want for the street.
It is now four years past reconstruction and it is still the best automotive decision I have ever made.
11-08-2023, 09:03 PM
